RANT: Low Fi - Vintage Recordings & My Studio

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spindlebox
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2014/03/20 14:43:52 (permalink)

RANT: Low Fi - Vintage Recordings & My Studio

So, I am about to go nuts.
 
I have 2 clients.  One of which really likes 70's music and the other is a punk band.
 
The one that likes 70's music wants to get the sound of artists like Cream and Neil Young (Cinnamon Girl).  
The punk band wants to sound like Husker Du's "Zen Arcade":  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlDsZ6Z6nG4
 
All really good songs/bands/albums.
 
But why go through the trouble of recording in a professional studio, using today's technology, if you want to sound like you recorded in somebody's living room.  Granted, both of those albums/artists/bands recorded in studios, but the quality of those recordings is so LO FI - well my point is, the artists themselves would have CONTINUED to record that way, if they had REALLY LIKED THOSE ORIGINAL RECORDINGS.  Am I wrong?

Anyway, just venting a bit.  It is also very difficult to tell these people that, say in the case of Neil Young - all of that stuff was recorded on Analog gear, using vintage equipment and microphones.  The stuff they're using is NOT vintage gear, and we are obviously recording ITB.
 
 


 

 
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    batsbrew
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    Re: RANT: Low Fi - Vintage Recordings & My Studio 2014/03/20 15:05:37 (permalink)
    i think some simple decisions, like using more room mics for the husker du sound, versus close micing and selective eq and effects for the more classic sound, is all you need to do.
     
     

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    batsbrew
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    Re: RANT: Low Fi - Vintage Recordings & My Studio 2014/03/20 15:06:43 (permalink)
    it is almost NEVER about the gear.
     
    only capture and mix decisions.
     
     

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    Danny Danzi
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    Re: RANT: Low Fi - Vintage Recordings & My Studio 2014/03/20 16:33:42 (permalink)
    batsbrew
    i think some simple decisions, like using more room mics for the husker du sound, versus close micing and selective eq and effects for the more classic sound, is all you need to do.
     
     




    He's spot on, Scott. The classic rock sound is simple brother. A bit more room, less processing, compress only when needed, do NOT push any "air" highs, and do not push any sub lows. You want that middle of the road sound that is open, a little roomy and you don't want layers all over the place.
     
    Me personally, I don't ever go for a total classic rock sound for bands that are looking for that sound. I try to not allow them to sound dated. I think a band can write in any style they want....and sound how they want in their songwriting. BUT....I don't think they should try to get the sound of say Bad Company or CSN's production. So I sell them on a hybrid which to me....would be this to the "T" and what I just did with the last 3 classic rock bands that recorded here.
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWmFIfZ2rJ4
     
    The only problem with the above band production to me....it sounds too digital. This band would sound so much better if they had more of an analog sound. This is what I mean by "no air highs." But the other side of the coin is, these guys sort of have a now sounding production with an old writing style, which makes them a bit more acceptable. As soon as you go for a total analog sound for a band like this, it double dates them. But I personally would have went for a little warmer tone for these guys.....you can still get the idea though.
     
    So if I were you:
     
    1. You always do your best to accommodate. The man you are, you will NEVER have a problem there.
     
    2. Don't "produce" unless you are asked/paid to. However, always give advice or let the band in on your ideas. Most bands do not know about the audio field. All they listen for is themselves individually in a mix and just can't comprehend how it all works or blends together like we do.
     
    3. Always make suggestions. 90% of the time, you are the 5th Beatle and will make an impact on how their record sounds. Just look at how I played a role in your stuff as the mastering engineer. Imagine how it might have been if I was the one that recorded you. 
     
    4. Try not to get too involved unless you're invited to be. But, again, always give advice and make sure you really know what you're talking about before you give any. The last thing you want to do is make someone believe in you and the project fails because they listened to you. So do just what you did here and post on the forum or call someone you trust.
     
    You'll be fine man.....you have to accept what comes through the door. But it's also great to improve what comes in the door so it's 100% better going OUT the door. Just make suggestions and let the play come from them. Maybe try a little experimenting before the band comes. If you have a drum kit or other instruments....try going for a more classic rock sound with a bit more room ambiance.
     
    Remember, it's not really lo-fi....it's just a stylistic preference that goes with that type of music. It doesn't have to be lo-fi. It can just be warm and analog sounding...or you can get a hybrid mix and make it "the production of today with the sound of yesterday". :) The same with punk....the razor sharp edges that music has...is due to two things.
     
    1. Aggression
     
    2. Edge and bright high end
     
    You take those two things away....and punk loses its luster really fast and no longer has that "impact." The high end abrasiveness some of it has annoys me the same as some classic rock with excessive warmth annoys me. You have to take the good with the bad, achieve a happy medium and do your homework on different styles so you know how to record and process them. You'll have no problems.....I have faith in you brother. Best of luck! :)
     
    -Danny

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    pistolpete
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    Re: RANT: Low Fi - Vintage Recordings & My Studio 2014/03/20 20:26:35 (permalink)
    Dig up an old rack 900lb rack of Rocktron gear and your clients will be in lo-fi heaven. 
    Remember, if they have the cash, give them what they want even if you personally don't like it. It's about making them happy.
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re: RANT: Low Fi - Vintage Recordings & My Studio 2014/03/21 08:09:15 (permalink)
    Keep them happy.  Happy clients come back and spend more money and tell their friends, and.... well you get the picture.
     
    It matters not if the recording is done in "In the Box" because .... while the gear plays a part in the sound, the musicians, IMHO, play the greater part in how the project will ultimately sound.
     
    Put Neil and Crazy Horse in a modern digital studio and use the best gear, and Neil will still sound like Neil...sure he may complain about the lack of analogue gear...... but it will still sound like Neil.

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    #6
    spindlebox
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    Re: RANT: Low Fi - Vintage Recordings & My Studio 2014/03/21 10:15:31 (permalink)
    I understand all of that and I appreciate all of your insights.  I DO accommodate and that's why I am "silently" grumbling here and not anywhere my clients can see.
     
    I totally disagree with the "not about the gear" comment though.  You can't get that Cream bass sound of Jack Bruce, who uses a Gibson EB-3 though a 100-Watt Marshall stack on "11" in a big room - by using an active Ibanez Soundgear recorded DI.  Sure, you can emulate that with a bit of work to KIND OF, sound like it - and we can argue all day about it, but sorry, you just can't replicate the real thing in the box - any better than those "microphone emulators" can turn an Shure SM57 into a Neumann U87.
     
    Danny's statement is the ENTIRE crux of this post:  "I try to not allow them to sound dated. I think a band can write in any style they want....and sound how they want in their songwriting. BUT....I don't think they should try to get the sound of say Bad Company or CSN's production."
     
    What I wish to allow them and what they will be happy with are 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.
     
    So yeah, I give it to them, of course I do.  But I don't have to like it.   


    However, this is the slippery slope:  I mixed an album for a dark alternative band.  They basically, with all of their inputs and feeble adjectives - wanting me to create "feelings" and "emotions" in the music, basically - to me - ruined the production.  My opinion is, if you want that stuff in the music, write it in the music and perform it in the music.  It shouldn't be up to the engineer to do it.  (But this is my inner musician talking.)  So the bad part about it is, the album sucked as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think they like it much either.  I warned them and pleaded with them and tried to reason with them, but there were so many "cooks in the kitchen" arguing among band members, dealing with insecurities (the vocalist is so insecure about her voice she basically wanted it buried), and even some attempts at having me make changes on the sly without the consent of other bandmates.  There were also a couple members "armchair engineering", telling me how to EQ and such (which is MADDENING).  So the album suffered, and at the end of the day, I KNOW they blame me (it's easy to blame the engineer to other people if your album sucks) - and their friend's bands who originally were going to record here decided to try it on their own.  
     
    Which to be honest, is what I NOW wish the first band should have done.  I mean, if you don't want to trust somebody else or let somebody else help you, or even listen to them - then why have somebody else work with you to begin with?
     
    So that's the most frustrating part of it - and is the entire point of this rant.


     

     
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    batsbrew
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    Re: RANT: Low Fi - Vintage Recordings & My Studio 2014/03/21 11:47:01 (permalink)
    spindlebox
    I totally disagree with the "not about the gear" comment though.  You can't get that Cream bass sound of Jack Bruce, who uses a Gibson EB-3 though a 100-Watt Marshall stack on "11" in a big room - by using an active Ibanez Soundgear recorded DI.  Sure, you can emulate that with a bit of work to KIND OF, sound like it - and we can argue all day about it, but sorry, you just can't replicate the real thing in the box - any better than those "microphone emulators" can turn an Shure SM57 into a Neumann U87.
     



    spindle,
    i was only referring to the methods of 'capturing' the sound, NOT how the sound was generated.
     
    i always consider the task of generating the sound as belonging to the musician.
     

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    spindlebox
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    Re: RANT: Low Fi - Vintage Recordings & My Studio 2014/03/21 11:52:06 (permalink)
    batsbrew
    spindlebox
    I totally disagree with the "not about the gear" comment though.  You can't get that Cream bass sound of Jack Bruce, who uses a Gibson EB-3 though a 100-Watt Marshall stack on "11" in a big room - by using an active Ibanez Soundgear recorded DI.  Sure, you can emulate that with a bit of work to KIND OF, sound like it - and we can argue all day about it, but sorry, you just can't replicate the real thing in the box - any better than those "microphone emulators" can turn an Shure SM57 into a Neumann U87.
     



    spindle,
    i was only referring to the methods of 'capturing' the sound, NOT how the sound was generated.
     
    i always consider the task of generating the sound as belonging to the musician.
     




    Well you mentioned GEAR in your comment, and I mentioned capture in mine.
     
    EDIT #2, and I never said I didn't know how to get those sounds, especially with mic'ing techniques.  I use "too many" mics and then take away the ones I don't need.  Sometimes I need them, sometimes I don't.  I always use overhead and room mics too.  So getting that "airy, roomy" sound is not the problem.  This is just a rant mostly about putting out LO-FI, mediocre quality sounding recordings in my studio, and also the fact that they come out of my studio makes it seem like that's what I'm capable of.

    You REALLY have to listen to that Husker Du recording I'm talking about.  THAT'S what the client wants.  It's a punk band, but they want everything washed out in Reverb.  

    Why not just set up a few mics in a rented Odd Fellows Hall, press record and call it a day?

    YES, I KNOW I'M BEING A BABY - so WAHHH!  



    post edited by spindlebox - 2014/03/21 12:32:59


     

     
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