Helpful Replyexternal inserts eats outputs

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RogerH
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2014/03/21 12:06:12 (permalink)

external inserts eats outputs

I'm trying to use a hardware compressor via external inputs.
As long as I'm running it with stereo outs its ok .
But If I want to use it as two mono compressors the external input module won't let me use both sides at the same time.
If I wan't to use it this way I need to repatch one of the otputs and one output is left unusable. Why??
Is this how it should be, or is it a bug?

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brundlefly
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 12:17:35 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RogerH 2014/03/21 12:23:19
External Insert has always commandeered both channels of a stereo pair. I've entered my own feature request for it to allow using mono channels independently and it's been mentioned frequently enough that I'm sure others have submitted Feature Requests or Problem Reports as well. 

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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 12:24:26 (permalink)
Go into preferences and check show mono outputs.

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RogerH
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 12:31:05 (permalink)
gswitz
Go into preferences and check show mono outputs.

Show mono outputs are checked
brundlefly
External Insert has always commandeered both channels of a stereo pair. I've entered my own feature request for it to allow using mono channels independently and it's been mentioned frequently enough that I'm sure others have submitted Feature Requests or Problem Reports as well. 



Hmm. Maybe I'll need to send a feature request too. This is too silly.
Any smart workarounds exept repatching?

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panup
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 13:19:27 (permalink)
External inserts haven't been updated since the initial version. I guess it's one of the "implement and forget" features in Sonar.
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Jay Tee 4303
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 13:52:44 (permalink)
I am reasonably sure I can achieve this objective with a buss, and at least two different Maudio and one Motu interface DSP mixers.

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RogerH
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 17:00:55 (permalink)
With the growing popularity of the 500 series I think many users wants to include more hardware effects into their setup.
The way Sonar wastes half of the outputs on the audio interface is not a good way to get more users to jump from other DAW's.
I am almost what you can call a Sonar "fanboy", but this is, as I said in another post , just too silly.

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brundlefly
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 18:13:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RogerH 2014/03/22 05:29:39
Workaround:
 
- Put the External Insert on a bus and give it a stereo send and return.
- Assign tracks to the bus, and pan them hard left and right according to which channel/processor you want them to hit.
- Use Channel Tools after the EI to pan the returns as needed or bounce the processed signals to new tracks (split mono) to free up the External Insert for the next job.
 
 
 
 

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RogerH
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 18:19:09 (permalink)
Thank's, I'll try that.
Maybe X4 will give us an updated external inserts module.

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 18:24:11 (permalink)
panup
External inserts haven't been updated since the initial version. I guess it's one of the "implement and forget" features in Sonar.


Not true - there was a major rework in 8.5.3. https://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/reader.aspx/20090222

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RogerH
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 18:29:49 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
panup
External inserts haven't been updated since the initial version. I guess it's one of the "implement and forget" features in Sonar.


Not true - there was a major rework in 8.5.3. https://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/reader.aspx/20090222


Can we hope for a fix for this stereo/mono problem in X4, please

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panup
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 19:02:28 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
panup
External inserts haven't been updated since the initial version. I guess it's one of the "implement and forget" features in Sonar.


Not true - there was a major rework in 8.5.3. https://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/reader.aspx/20090222


 
Oh, you're right, I didn't remember there was "External Insert life" before 8.5.3.
I could write detailed design for External Insert II if CW has any interest to update it further... :)
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 19:17:07 (permalink)
RogerH
Can we hope for a fix for this stereo/mono problem in X4, please



Probably not because it isn't a bug :) Seriously the external insert is one of the most complex areas of the code and we don't intend making major changes to that area. Most of the functional user reported problems were addressed in the last big update we did to it. True mono support would be nice to have but we don't know of any major functionality that is missing for this feature as it stands today.

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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 19:32:18 (permalink)
Is it possible to give External Insert outputs for use even if they're used in archived tracks?
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 19:41:12 (permalink)
I'm not sure what use case you are considering here and why archived tracks play a role.

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panup
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 19:56:09 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I'm not sure what use case you are considering here and why archived tracks play a role.




Correct me if I'm wrong: output is not shown in External Insert dropdown list if it's used in any track or bus, even archived track. 
Is there a reason why they reserve assigned output from being used in External Insert?
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panup
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 20:01:08 (permalink)
In a large project it may be difficult to find the track which reserves the desired output. Many times I have wondered (when using 2 x FF800) why output is not shown in the External Insert dropdown list only to find later that it was set on an archived and hidden track. 
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 20:26:10 (permalink)
The problem is, if you were to re-use the outputs and then un-Archive the track with the EI at some point, how should SONAR resolve the conflict?
 
Also, as the page that Noel linked points out, its doesn't make much sense to leave External Inserts active in a project indefinitely because that hardware is likely to get reconfigured at some point with settings that are no longer applicable to the project.
 
All of these issue are best avoided by bouncing the external processing as soon as possible in the project's life, and removing the EI.
 
 
 
 

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panup
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/21 20:57:51 (permalink)
How about more simple approach: any output can be used but outputs are assigned to -none- for those tracks that use it (warning / messagebox to confirm).
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RogerH
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/22 05:35:12 (permalink)
brundlefly
Workaround:
 
- Put the External Insert on a bus and give it a stereo send and return.
- Assign tracks to the bus, and pan them hard left and right according to which channel/processor you want them to hit.
- Use Channel Tools after the EI to pan the returns as needed or bounce the processed signals to new tracks (split mono) to free up the External Insert for the next job.
 
 
 
 




Thank's. That works. A little more hassle that I could wish for, but it's a workaround.

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RogerH
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/22 05:51:59 (permalink)
 
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
RogerH
Can we hope for a fix for this stereo/mono problem in X4, please



Probably not because it isn't a bug :) Seriously the external insert is one of the most complex areas of the code and we don't intend making major changes to that area. Most of the functional user reported problems were addressed in the last big update we did to it. True mono support would be nice to have but we don't know of any major functionality that is missing for this feature as it stands today.




Thank's for your answer.
It's seems like the external inserts works fine, (and with the help from brundlefly's post above, I have a workaround) but as you said "True mono support would be nice to have". 
 
I think that a lot of users are going to use more hardware effects due to the popularity of the 500 series modules in the future, so maybe it could be wise to see if true mono support is possible without to much rebuilding of the code.
(I know nothing about computerprogramming so it's easy for me to say )
 

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/22 09:29:31 (permalink)
panup
How about more simple approach: any output can be used but outputs are assigned to -none- for those tracks that use it (warning / messagebox to confirm).



While it might seem that archived tracks shouldn't tie up an input as brundlefly pointed out its not quite that trivial to handle the case when you unarchive. Reassigning other track outputs is an even worse solution since it changes other data in the project. If you need to reuse a port that is in use just change it from the track :)
Adding complications like this to handle every workflow possible is what creates bugs and side effects.

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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/22 10:25:53 (permalink)
brundlefly
Workaround:
 
- Put the External Insert on a bus and give it a stereo send and return.
- Assign tracks to the bus, and pan them hard left and right according to which channel/processor you want them to hit.
- Use Channel Tools after the EI to pan the returns as needed or bounce the processed signals to new tracks (split mono) to free up the External Insert for the next job.



Hunh...cool. That's a workaround that I hadn't thought of before. Thanks Brundlefly. 
 
Incidentally, when placing E.I. on a bus, keep in mind a few workflow items:

1. Until you route signal to a track the delay calculation will fail. I add this here because of the sheer number of times I've added a bus, dropped in an E.I. and tried to do the delay calculation and then spent the next 15 minutes or so cursing and grumbling before remembering to route signal to it first .
2. There is a known bug (CWBRN-18719 if you're interested) where soloing a bus with an external insert will result in silence. 
3. On any E.I., if you change the audio buffers, you must re-calculate the E.I. delay.
 
Just some thinks to keep in mind when using External Inserts.
 
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/22 13:06:30 (permalink)
Re CWBRN-18719 we should be able to address that issue in a future version.

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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/22 13:14:34 (permalink)
Razorwit
 
1. Until you route signal to a track the delay calculation will fail. I add this here because of the sheer number of times I've added a bus, dropped in an E.I. and tried to do the delay calculation and then spent the next 15 minutes or so cursing and grumbling before remembering to route signal to it first .
2. There is a known bug (CWBRN-18719 if you're interested) where soloing a bus with an external insert will result in silence. 

 
Good points. I re-discovered those issues when I was checking the efficacy of the workaround. Did you ever report the first one?

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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/22 14:16:05 (permalink)
Hi Brundefly,
I think the first one is a "works as intended" kind of situation. Sonar intentionally doesn't stream audio to busses with nothing routed to them, and because of that the "ping" that delay calculation uses to check latency fails. So, shorter answer is that I haven't reported it 
 
Noel, thanks for chiming in on that. I know you and I have talked about it here before, I appreciate the attention.
 
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Re: external inserts eats outputs 2014/03/22 14:40:25 (permalink)
Razorwit
Hi Alex,
Sure:
1. insert a bus and route a track to it.
2. insert an instance of the External Input plugin (preferably one with an effect attached)
3. Solo that bus.
 
This should replicate the behavior of any other bus with an effect on it, but instead results in silence.
 
Noel et al. are aware of it and have said it can probably be fixed in a future version: http://forum.cakewalk.com/external-inserts-eats-outputs-m3011727.aspx
 
Dean

 
Steps according to Dean (pasting from another thread).

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