ULTRABRA
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 484
- Joined: 2009/07/07 05:27:34
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
- Status: offline
Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
If I have a 44100 Hz (or 48000 Hz) project and import samples of both 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz into it - is Sonar doing some kind of automatic downgrading/upgrading of the samples so they are all in the same (presume the project setting) format?
Similarly with importing 24 bit and 16 bit WAV samples into the same project - how does Sonar handle that?
Can it happen that with samples at different formats, some may be played back slower (or faster) than their original?
HP Z420, Intel Xeon E5-1620@ 3600MHz, 8GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, Soundcard : Focusrite Saffire 24, & Sonar : Producer X3 My Soundcloud
|
robert_e_bone
Moderator
- Total Posts : 8968
- Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
- Location: Palatine, IL
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 08:34:42
(permalink)
The clips will be in whatever sample rate they are imported as, and can be a mixture of different rates.
If you import a 44.1 k clip and later export it with a sample rate of 48 k on output, it will not make it sound any better.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
|
Kalle Rantaaho
Max Output Level: -5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7005
- Joined: 2006/01/09 13:07:59
- Location: Finland
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 09:15:33
(permalink)
robert_e_bone
The clips will be in whatever sample rate they are imported as, and can be a mixture of different rates.
Bob Bone
But you don't mean SONAR doesn't convert them to follow the project, do you (that was the OP's question)? I've thought that would make it impossible to play them back simultaneously?? Track one with 44,1 kHz and track 2 48 kHz - does it really go like that?
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 09:20:06
(permalink)
ULTRABRA
If I have a 44100 Hz (or 48000 Hz) project and import samples of both 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz into it - is Sonar doing some kind of automatic downgrading/upgrading of the samples so they are all in the same (presume the project setting) format?
Similarly with importing 24 bit and 16 bit WAV samples into the same project - how does Sonar handle that?
Can it happen that with samples at different formats, some may be played back slower (or faster) than their original?
SONAR is able to do sample rate and bit depth conversion on the fly. You declare a project sample rate and word length, and that's what SONAR enforces regardless of whether the data was imported, recorded, frozen, bounced or generated by a synth or sample player. For example, if you use a Kontakt library with 48 KHz samples in a 44.1 KHz project, SONAR quietly converts them for you. It's a greatly under-appreciated feature that keeps things simple because under most circumstances we're entirely relieved from having to think about such things. Your only responsibility is making sure your audio interface is at the correct sample rate, as that's the only time the scheme goes awry: when the interface and project sampling frequencies don't match.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
dlion16
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 391
- Joined: 2007/03/08 15:21:55
- Location: East Quogue, NY
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 09:48:34
(permalink)
yes, and when they do, bit, sonar tells you you have no audio device or something. you have to close sonar, reset the audio device, then reopen sonar. always wondered why sonar doesn't just reset the audio device like vegas does...
SONAR Platinum Lifetime 64-bit; Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd Gen.; KRK Rokit 5; ASUS P9X79; INTEL I7-3820 3.6 GHZ;850 WATT POWER SUPPLY; EVGA NVIDIA GTX560 TI 1GB;Windows 10 Home 64-bit; 32GB RAM;2 Internal SSD Drives, 3 External USB drives.
|
robert_e_bone
Moderator
- Total Posts : 8968
- Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
- Location: Palatine, IL
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 10:19:04
(permalink)
Yes - I just meant how the clips are stored, which is in their original format.
Sorry for any confusion,
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
|
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14250
- Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
- Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 11:02:17
(permalink)
One-the-fly sample-rate conversion of output from sample-based soft synths is one thing, but I understood the OP to be talking about importing audio samples/files into tracks. In that case, SONAR will write a new file with the project's sample rate, and will also convert the bit depth as necessary based on the setting in the Import dialog or the setting in Preferences > File Audio Data if the file is dragged in directly.
EDIT: Bit depths can be mixed in a project, but not sample rates.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
|
robert_e_bone
Moderator
- Total Posts : 8968
- Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
- Location: Palatine, IL
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 12:06:28
(permalink)
Wow - I am having a giant senior moment day - YES it is the bit-depth that remains the same, not the sample rate. The sample rate IS converted on import, to the project's sample rate, and the bit-depth does not change.
DOH!
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 12:27:00
(permalink)
dlion16
yes, and when they do, bit, sonar tells you you have no audio device or something. you have to close sonar, reset the audio device, then reopen sonar. always wondered why sonar doesn't just reset the audio device like vegas does...
That's something different. The OP is asking about mixed sample rates within a project, which isn't possible. You simply cannot mix two or more data streams unless they're at the same rate. I think what you're referring to is changing the interface settings, which SONAR normally does automatically when you open a project, and has nothing to do with sample rate conversion. Changing the sample rate of a project is a much bigger deal than on-the-fly SRC when you import a file. Interesting that Vegas does it more smoothly, though.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8424
- Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 12:31:36
(permalink)
Just another question, Doesn't Sonar convert all audio into 32 or 64 bit wave?
I understood that everything is recorded in 44.1 32 bit in my case.
If I import a Mp3 file, as example, it will become a 44.1 32 bit wave.
|
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14250
- Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
- Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 13:05:05
(permalink)
As I said, the bit depth of the new file depends on the Bit Depth setting you choose in the Import dialog, or whatever you have set in Preferences > File > Audio Data if the file is dragged in. One option (the default...?) is "Original", meaning the bit depth will not be changed. For MP3s I presume this means 16-bit.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
|
ULTRABRA
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 484
- Joined: 2009/07/07 05:27:34
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 16:25:57
(permalink)
Thanks for all the replies. I was indeed talking about importing wav files of different sample rates into the same project. I did a test with 2 projects, one at 44.1 and one at 48, and imported samples at 44.1 and 48 into each. They played back exactly the same in both, so as was stated above, seems Sonar does its job, without the user having to think.
Is there any noticeable difference in quality between converting a 44.1 sample up to 48, and converting a 48 sample down to 44.1 ...? None that I could hear in my test but, logically anything ..?
HP Z420, Intel Xeon E5-1620@ 3600MHz, 8GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, Soundcard : Focusrite Saffire 24, & Sonar : Producer X3 My Soundcloud
|
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2003/11/03 17:22:50
- Location: Boston, MA, USA
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 16:34:24
(permalink)
SONAR's SRC is very high quality so you won't hear any artifacts converting between different sample rates.
|
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5321
- Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
- Location: Maryland, USA
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/26 16:50:06
(permalink)
bitflipper
It's a greatly under-appreciated feature that keeps things simple because under most circumstances we're entirely relieved from having to think about such things.
+1 to this comment. I have only used CW products so have been jaded by this "under-the-hood" nicety. It was not until a couple months ago that I first witnessed the issues this can create in some other programs, and it was at that point when I realized all the years I have taken this for granted.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
|
Featherlight
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 429
- Joined: 2004/03/15 20:53:25
- Location: The Great Northwest
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/27 00:43:53
(permalink)
That's one of the things that really sets Sonar apart and why its such a joy to work in, because you can actually 'work' without getting stuck in the 'tech' zone. Having to work in other DAW's for project compatibility has really made me appreciate how simple Sonar makes things that other DAW's don't.
http://www.featherlightstudio.com/studio Computer: Intel i7 Quad, Intel P7P55D mobo, 16gig Corsair, Nvidia 8600gs Fanless OS: Windows 7 Professional 64 bit ----------------------------------------------------- Computer: Mac Mini i7 Quad Core Server, Intel mobo, 16 gig DDR3, 2-USB3 Audio Drvs, Mavericks ----------------------------------------------------- Audio Interface: Mackie 1640i Firewire Mixer on a 1394 400 TI Chip Peripherals: 3 UAD-1 PCie, Ilok 2, MIDI'd Yamaha Motif xs,
|
CJaysMusic
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 30423
- Joined: 2006/10/28 01:51:41
- Location: Miami - Fort Lauderdale - Davie
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/03/27 12:57:16
(permalink)
s there any noticeable difference in quality between converting a 44.1 sample up to 48, and converting a 48 sample down to 44.1 ...? None that I could hear in my test but, logically anything ..? No.. If there was, Sonar would be out of business.
|
ULTRABRA
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 484
- Joined: 2009/07/07 05:27:34
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/05/25 03:09:58
(permalink)
bitflipper
Changing the sample rate of a project is a much bigger deal than on-the-fly SRC when you import a file.
Going back to this comment --- if I have a entire project that is 44.1 and I want to change it 48 - actually, I don't figure out how to do that - is it possible? Or, is it that should when exporting as a WAV file, export it at 48?
HP Z420, Intel Xeon E5-1620@ 3600MHz, 8GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, Soundcard : Focusrite Saffire 24, & Sonar : Producer X3 My Soundcloud
|
scook
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 24146
- Joined: 2005/07/27 13:43:57
- Location: TX
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/05/25 03:22:35
(permalink)
|
ULTRABRA
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 484
- Joined: 2009/07/07 05:27:34
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/05/25 05:39:25
(permalink)
Thanks for that - seems quite a lot of work for a large existing project. I could export a 44.1 project as a 48 WAV file, so converting all in one go to a 48000 file - not sure if there is any lowering of quality of I do that from 44 to 48 though?
HP Z420, Intel Xeon E5-1620@ 3600MHz, 8GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, Soundcard : Focusrite Saffire 24, & Sonar : Producer X3 My Soundcloud
|
lawp
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1154
- Joined: 2012/06/28 13:27:41
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/05/25 08:37:05
(permalink)
sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/05/25 09:14:21
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby lawp 2014/05/25 09:24:15
ULTRABRA
Thanks for that - seems quite a lot of work for a large existing project. I could export a 44.1 project as a 48 WAV file, so converting all in one go to a 48000 file - not sure if there is any lowering of quality of I do that from 44 to 48 though?
If there is any degradation it'll be inaudible. Yes, it is too much work for too little benefit. I honestly can't think of any scenario where it would be worth the effort to convert a project. If you need the final file to be 48 KHz, just convert it while exporting or use an equally-good conversion utility (e.g. R8Brain) after the fact. lawp, I'd be very surprised if the SRC algorithm has changed since 8.5. It's a calculation, an algorithm, a formula. Once you've nailed it there isn't much reason to rewrite it, except possibly to implement some optimizations. There is always room for efficiency tweaks, although programmers are usually reluctant to mess with solid, working code just to shave off a microsecond or two. I think we can be confident that SONAR's SRC is just as good today as it was when those tests were done.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
ULTRABRA
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 484
- Joined: 2009/07/07 05:27:34
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/05/25 10:09:20
(permalink)
Thanks Bit, I checked out this Brain software, seems easy and effective. I'll see if I notice any difference between a 44.1 export upsampled to 48 with R8Brain, and a 44.1 sonar project exported as a 48 wav. Probably no noticeable difference ...
HP Z420, Intel Xeon E5-1620@ 3600MHz, 8GB RAM, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit, Soundcard : Focusrite Saffire 24, & Sonar : Producer X3 My Soundcloud
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Mixing files 44100 Hz and 48000 Hz in same project
2014/05/25 12:04:56
(permalink)
lawp
the src shootout: http://src.infinitewave.ca/ although the latest version of sonar tested is 8.5 (has the engine changed since then?)
That's pretty impressive! Sure backs up Noel's claim.
|