Crest Factor (RMS to Peak) too wide?

Hello Everyone,
 
Kinda new on the audio engineering side to things, so forgive me if this is redundant.
 
I have a track pretty much finished.  It consists of:
 
-Electronic Drums (808 Kit) - standard sound (not aggressive)
-Synth Bass
-Piano
-Synthesizer
 
Maybe only 5 or 6 tracks total for the project.

I always read that PRE-mastering that your PEAK should be around -6 db, and the RMS should be around -14 db (which would be a crest factor of 8 db difference.)
 
However, my track sounds best when the RMS is about -23 when peaks are at -6db.  This crest factor is about 18 db difference.  I read that the crest factor (pre-master) should only be 12 db OR LESS, but whenever I bring up the synths, bass, or piano; the sound gets muddy and drums get lost in the mix.

I am asking because I want to eventually send these off for mastering, but want to ensure proper db's  pre-master.
 
 
Screenshot from Toneboosters Meter:
 

 
Thanks in advance,
Adam

EXCELLENT STUFF HERE CARL!

Thank you for the info, and glad to know I am actually on target for a good pre-master :)  I was getting nervous b/c nothing I could do would get me within a 12 db Crest Factor without ruining the mix :)
 
I will surely look over these links!  Really appreciate this!
 
-Adam

You're welcome.
Lots of info involved but try to at least familiarize yourself with the basics. 
 
Also when you're ready to master have the ME listen & critique your tracks too.
Don't be afraid to ask questions if you have any concerns about your tracks like levels, eq etc..
The ones I've used were always willing to help, give alt. versions to check & choose from.
Good luck!

Better to go off to the ME with too high a crest factor than too low, because the ME can only lower it.

As long as you mix with proper metering & gain-staging eg K-14, your files should be right on the money or at least close.

WaveLab has a R-128 EBU loudness normalizer feature that will adjust your audio tracks to the desired level.
Studio One & Cubase have file analysis features that gives you DR, peak & RMS/ EBU measurements.
When EBU guidelines become more the norm I'm sure other software will become available.
X3 will most likely add these features at some point too.

I forgot this one from my list. Very handy trim plug, ms / stereo mono switches with EBU metering- peak, hold, EBU, LRA
Free w/ installer
HOFA 4U Meter, Fader & MS-Pan
http://hofa-plugins.de/pages/start_en/4u_en.php
 

I don't know if it's flawed & thought a crest value from 10 to 20 dB was normal.
A crest factor of 16dB would mean an RMS lower than -16dB for most parts of the song.
I'd have the ME check it out.

16 dB is not excessive.

bitflipper
16 dB is not excessive.

I read a few articles on the internet that the crest factor should not be more than 12db, plus I see a lot of people stating their pre-master RMS is about -18 db and peaks at -8 to -6 db

Your original post was asking about an unmastered mix. 16 dB is not excessive for an unmastered file.
 
If the discussion has now shifted to mastering, 16 dB may or may not be excessive for a final master, depending on the application and genre. Are you mastering for broadcast specifically? R128 is a broadcast standard.

I have done some more research into things. I have also asked some questions to Ian Shepherd who is the mastering guru. Read some very good info about him and his mastering concepts here:
 
http://productionadvice.co.uk/loudness-war-secret/
 
Something I recommend you do and others too is to join this organisation:
 
http://www.dynamicrange.de/
 
For a $30 donation and it is well worth it in my opinion you become an active member and you will entitled to download a free TT Dynamic Range meter. There is also tons of info about mastering and mixing there especially relating to keeping mixes alive and dynamic and not too loud.
 
Now I have quite a few measurement systems in place. Firstly K system metering and now I have added LUFS metering into my arsenal. But interestingly the Dynamic Range meter is actually something you still need and is not covered by the Orban LUFS meter. (It may be in other LUFS meters though) BTW I really like the Orban meter and I can highly recommend it. It tells you heaps about your mix. The LRA reading on the Orban meter is not the same as dynamic range BTW. It is a measure of loudness variations. Still handy to know but not a dynamic range reading though.
 
Now your premastered mix will have a high reading for dynamic range. Mastered mixes however will be quite different. Ian says that 6 is terrible, 8 is pretty boderline but values higher than 8 are best eg 9 or 10 for example. So what I am saying above in my previous post is it is OK to make a mix louder than your premastered mix for sure. The mastering engineer if he knows what he is doing should be able to advise on these things regarding a mix:
 
What sort of average rms levels the mix is going to reach. (expressed as a dB figure) For example I work with K system metering and I premaster to K-14 dB. So that means my premastered mix is just hitting -14 dB rms most of the time. After mastering it might be -10 instead. Note I have been going for -7 average for clients that insist on very loud masters and now I am going to STOP IT!)
 
What the overall LUFS reading will be. OK the LUFS reading will be close to the rms reading if the music is hitting the rms mark most of the time. But if there are variations in the mix ie it gets quieter here and there then the LUFS reading will end up a little lower. eg for a dynamic mastered -10 rms mix for example the LUFS reading might be -12 or so.
 
What the dynamic range reading will be.
This is actually the important one. It should be a value somewhat higher than 8 if possible. 10 sounds even better if you can get it. But this is a tradeoff between a very loud rms or LUFS mix and dynamic range.
 
If your mastering engineer does not understand or can give you this info above then he is not worth using and you should find someone who does know this.
 
If you suspect a mix is not very dynamic after mastering and sounds squashed (as is with most idiot ME's !!!) you should run the dynamic range test over it and really see what they have done to destroy your mix. I have checked a few mixes that I have mastered reluctantly loud for stupid clients and they fail the DR test rather badly!
 
The Dynamic Range meter comes in two forms. One is a normal DLL file which gives you live monitoring in the form of a plugin of course. The other is a stand alone app that just loads the track and analyses it. This reading is slightly more accurate apparently. But even so it matches the live plugin usually.
 
So all I can say is you are fine to take your final mix up in level rms wise but not at the expense of the DR meter showing values of 7 and under. If you can keep that reading at 8 or above then you will be sweet with a loud punchy and transient and dynamic mix. All possible, you just have to balance all those things out.
 
BTW Steely Dan's 'Everything Must go' has an average rms reading of K-12 (-14 LUFS) but the DR meter also shows a value of 10. No wonder it sounds so bloody fantastic. It is a perfect balance of a loud master but punchy and transient as hell! It kicks ass!
 
You need all these tools I am talking about to master properly. (that is if you are going to do your own mastering but even if you are not you need to be right onto how any ME engineer has mastered your stuff. Have they done it PROPERLY.) Without them you are shooting in the dark as they say. BTW on Ian's site someone asks the question is K system metering good for nice LUFS levels and great Dynamic Range values and he says YES YES YES!!!! I told you so.
 

coming back to my first post about the crest factor or dynamic range.... I guess I just felt RMS of -23 db and peaks of -6 (for a pre-mastered file) is just too much of a gap, or am I wrong?

I read in a few places your crest factor should be no more than 12 db difference.
 
Thanks for your help

aglewis723

I read in a few places your crest factor should be no more than 12 db difference.
 
Thanks for your help

Who says so and in what context, a pre mastered mix or a mastered mix because they are different. There is no limit really as to what the crest factor can be (pre msatered mix that is) , it just means you have got a lovely transient and dynamic mix going on and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.
 
The moment you master this will change anyway. Once you get the loudness levels up and start to apply compression and limiting the crest factor will change. This is where the dynamic range meter comes into its own though. You can put it over your premastered mix and get a reading and then test it after mastering. As long as you still maintain some dynamic range after mastering your mix will still sound good mastered.