Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking

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TremoJem
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2014/04/01 12:38:49 (permalink)

Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking

My three piece band tracks in the rehearsal space. We isolate the bass and guitar in separate rooms and all share the space where the drums are.
 
As you can imagine this is impossible without headphones.
 
Can someone please put together a step by step hi-level summary of how to achieve that using two MOTU 8Pres' and my laptop with Sonar on it.
 
It seems to me that I would create a buss for the drums for ease in getting a mix level.
 
Then I would create three busses, one for drums, guitar and bass.
 
Then manage the sends on them to the appropriate 8Pres'.
 
For example, 8PreA Headphone Out, and 8PreB Headphone Out, and 8PreA Main Out.
 
But, how do you send one buss to three different locations.
 
As you can see, I kinda have a little bit of a start (I guess), but then I lose it.
 
All help is appreciated, thanks.

Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
 
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    vanblah
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/01 15:17:26 (permalink)
    In theory you could do this with sends.
     
    Create a buss for Headphone A, a buss for Headphone B, and a Buss for Headphone C assign the outputs of each of these busses to their appropriate destinations on the MOTUs.
     
    Create sends from each of your instrument busses (drums, bass, guitar, maybe vocals too) and send them to the Headphone busses.  Now you can control the levels of the sends from each instrument track for each player.  Bass player needs more drums?  Just adjust the send level from the drum buss to his/her headphone buss.
     
    EDIT:  I'm not familiar with the MOTU devices that you are talking about so I don't know if they have assignable headphone jacks or if they have multiple outputs ...
    post edited by vanblah - 2014/04/01 15:36:39
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    CJaysMusic
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/01 15:49:12 (permalink)
    You have a 3 piece band, so you will need a headphone amp. You can get a 4 channel headphone amp and you can route a send from the master bus to an output that is connected to the headphone amp. This is how i do it with my headphone amp.
     
    CJ

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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/01 16:36:42 (permalink)
    The 8pre is pretty limited output wise. Are you sure the headphone output doesn't just copy the main outs?
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    neirbod
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/01 17:17:15 (permalink)
    It may be easier to use the interface's mix software, not going through Sonar, to avoid any latency issues.  It should be able to set up different mixes for the different outputs. I think the MOTU 8Pres has only main outs and headphone outs.  Stick a headphone amp on there and hopefully two guys can share a mix without much trouble.  I (a drummer) sometimes share a mix with the bass player and usually it is fine.  

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    TremoJem
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/02 10:25:34 (permalink)
    Thanks for all the responses. The MOTU 8Pre does only have a main out and headphone out, which I believe mimics the main out.
     
    So, I guess creating send or using the interface software would be the same...one mix. I spoke with MOTU tech and he said to create two mixes, as I have two 8Pres. So one mix goes to 8Pre A and another mix goes to 8Pre B. He also said to use the main outs of one 8Pre for the third mix. But essentially all I am doing is selecting the output...right. And doesn't the interface share the same volume control for headphone and main out, which the tech really should have known about.
     
    So, is this possible to create at least two separate mixes? Send one each to each interface, with one of the interfaces sharing the same mix thru it's two separate outputs?
     
    I am really kinda lost a little here.
     
    Thanks for all of your input and help.

    Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
     
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    TremoJem
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/07 10:18:04 (permalink)
    I have created three sends on each track that go to three buses that I created. Each bus goes to a different output on each MOTU. Will let you know as soon as I test this, as I ran into some wacky stuff with my CD Burner on the other studio set up. That comes first.
    TNX all...

    Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
     
    Most importantly...not enough time.
     
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    #7
    Jay Tee 4303
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/07 12:13:42 (permalink)
    From ZZounds...
     
    - Discrete ins/outs -- there's no channel sharing in the 8pre; the mic inputs, ADAT optical I/O, headphone out and main outs are all handled as separate channels
    - CueMix DSP near-zero monitoring system
    - Multiple CueMix DSP mixes -- create different monitor mixes for the main outs and headphones. Add send/return loops for outboard gear with no latency
     
    Don't know this box, but I see the possibility of four monitor mixes with just 2 8pres.  Two stereo main outs, two headphone outs. I know you probably have monitors on Main A outs, but there are many ways to dual task those, splitter cables, patchbay, etc.
     
    There is even a possibility you could get 8 mono monitor mixes if CueMix lets you split stereo outs, and my 2408s can. You'd have to cable them right to get sound in both ears.
     
    My advice to you is to ease into this, more on your own, than following help here that you don't fully understand. Two reasons...one...nothing kills the vibe faster than..."&&^%$$^^$, I can't find the bass signal for the guitarist's cans....**^$##"
     
    Two...make a mistake with cans on everybody's head, and you can cost somebody their hearing. I have an iron rule here...cans do NOT come off heads with levels up. Silence them before removing them or be cast out. I monitor LOUD and the systems are easily capable of hearing damage.
     
    (Edit, this is important. I also set my cellphone to vibrate in my pocket after 20-25 minutes of high SPL monitoring. (In airplane mode.) You can monitor loud, you can monitor long, but if you monitor loud for long periods, you're going to roll off your hi freq perception real quick. Last I checked, I'm still hearing close to 22k, and that's by DESIGN, not accident.)
     
    The way to ease into this, that worked for me....was to extensively diagram the system as it evolved, and POST those diagrams in easy view of the main monitor mix controls. I started at both ends of the signal chain, drawing in what output channels I had available, and what headphone jacks I wanted where. In between was empty white space, I didn't know how to get from A to B, instead, just the definition of what A and B were.
     
    Each of those two layers in the diagram allowed me to fill in the adjacent layers, which is pretty simple, this many outs go to....the next logical step. This many headsets are fed from...well obviously, this many 1/4" TRS jacks, which are attached to...well...fill in the blank.
     
    Eventually, the layers, filled in one at a time, met in the middle.
     
    This approach, or something like it, is almost critical, for you to be able to USE what you create. Especially if you employ a real headphone amp. Think about it...your DAW is an effective multiplex...X inputs, Y outputs, myriad possibilities in routing, but ONLY ONE LAYER of variables.
     
    Add in your interface, another layer of multiplex possibilities, and here things get real deep, real fast. At best, your variables will sum, they might multiply, and at worst, they can factor. Now add in any multi-channel headphone amp, and you have at least THREE LAYERS of nested multiplexes, which is "who knows how many chances" to:
     
    A: Dial in the perfect mix for every artist.
     
    B: Lose track or one or more artist's signals, and
     
    C: Blow out one or more artist's eardrums.
     
    Start with the simple, known outputs and desired headphone stations, diagram intensively, date those diagrams, and post them as you go.
     
    Now...the good stuff...
     
    You have ADAT ports on those 8Pres. That's 8 channels of I/O for $200 (Behringer ADA-8200), or 16 channels of I/O for $400. Expandibility. Easy midlength cable runs with no noise, since they're digital, and trust me, can amps can be cheap, set to high gains, and very noisy at times. Some good cans have comparatively high impedance inputs (coff coff, Sennheiser, coff coff) which will require you to push monitor gain higher yet. A 5 meter lightpipe might set you back $30, but it carries 8 channels of noise free audio. Compare that to 8 times 5 meter, high quality balanced XLR or TRS cables...mmmhmmm, tasty savings!
     
    Bring another lightpipe back from the 8200, and you ALSO have 8 more inputs, with Midas-like Chinese pres. If Behr's not your cup of tea, you can get better ADAT terminals for more money.
     
    The outs on the Behr unit are line level XLRs. Think this out ahead of time, or you may get a nasty surprise. They won't drive headphones well...and it can get EXPENSIVE to adapter those XLR outs. If you pick your can amps right, you can bypass some or all of this.
     
    Don't forget...you're going to want verb in those cans, too, not high latency in the box plugin verb, but more likely, hardware verb. Here too, the right input connectors can get you around Behr's weird (for budget gear) XLR line outs.
     
    That's all I got for now, hope it helps!
     
     
    post edited by Jay Tee 4303 - 2014/04/07 12:25:36

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/07 13:08:56 (permalink)
    Yes, as above you need to set this up in the Cue Mix software or your band will experience listening with latency which even if it's only 5 ms sucks.  
     
    Another option that I used: 
     
    I recorded our 4 piece band with all of us in the same room. Drums, Bass,Keyboards and me on guitar ( amp in iso booth)  and a guide vocal.  The goal was perfect drum takes. The rest could be overdubbed later. 
    So focus was on a  drums. He had special headphones with good isolation which we found critical. 
     I have a Yamaha 01v mixer.  
    The drums and the band were all routed through the mixer. But because we also used a few different tricks, only the drums continued on to my Tascam us1641 via the 4 Aux sends and SPDIF. So a 6 channel drum mix. More mikes were possible but I'm happy with 6 tracks. 
     
    You'll notice I didn't use the stereo output of the board. This was used to drive our headphone system.  A cue mix that worked best for the drummer was set.   
    The Bass player was happy as the drummer also wanted lots of bass. He used a DI box with the  XLR output running to the Tascam and the 1/4" output to the 01v for the cue mix.
    The Keyboards L audio output was sent to the mixer for the cue mix, but the keyboard was recorded to MIDI. The R audio output was sent to a second mixer along with the cue mix for the keyboard player to set her own headphone mix.  
    I also used a small mixer and what I did was put a second mike on my guitar amp, one was recorded, one was the headphones. My vocal mike was also in the mixer and  I mostly sang quietly or provided verbal cues. 
     
    A larger mixer with more Auxiliaries and direct outputs would have been how they do it in a real studio, but our system worked without issues. Using more mixers required a little more in the way of hooking up wires but it was free.
     
    In the end we got our perfect drum takes and the bonus was the Keyboard, bass and guitar tracks were 90% usable too. There is something magical about a relaxed live performance over an uptight edited song. We used no click tracks. Those songs can be heard on my soundcloud link below "Uncle Ruckel album"  
     
    https://soundcloud.com/jo...ncle-ruckel-album-2010
     

    Johnny V  
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     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #9
    Jay Tee 4303
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/07 15:32:18 (permalink)
    Cactus, I like the stereo split to mono on KB sends to monitors. Its bought me extra channels in my DSP mixers. If there's time critical info on both KB channels, like a ping pong delay on a synth everybody keys on, by all means.
     
    But if the cost is a restrictive monitor mix situation, who needs both sides of a stereo piano, vocal, or bass in a headphone mix?

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    TremoJem
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/08 12:13:27 (permalink)
    Geez...I guess I am no further along than the engineering stage...so many possibilities...good stuff, thanks guys.

    Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
     
    Most importantly...not enough time.
     
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    TremoJem
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    Re: Headphone (monitor) Mix While Tracking 2014/04/30 06:25:31 (permalink)
    Update...
     
    I set up sends and it worked.
     
    I am able to send different mixes from Sonar to each headphone output for Motu 8Pre 1 and 2.
     
    tnx

    Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser
     
    Most importantly...not enough time.
     
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    jim@studiocat.com
     
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