Splat 
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 11:06:42
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☄ Helpfulby bapu 2014/04/09 11:41:50
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
...wicked
But I'm still baffled that we can't get better diagnostic tools that are obviously already present as part of the asset mgmt arsenal.
It shouldn't be that baffling. SONAR is a DAW, not a database management program. While its completely possible for us to do what you suggest, writing utilities to salvage data from a project file, there are at least a hundred other higher priority features that are ahead of that in our todo list. We a small team and finite resources. Writing software takes time so its inevitable that we have to prioritize what we do. AFIK no other DAW provides features that pull arbitrary data from a project file. I might write something like that in my spare time :)
They still haven't supplied my hover car yet but told it is coming soon...
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thomasabarnes
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 12:33:12
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...wicked
Go spare time!
Who was that chap who was doing SONARPlus or whatever the heck that was called? Maybe they can whip something up.
SONAR Plus: That would be BenStat, and, yes, Cakewalk has him on their team, now.  Noel gave the OP something good to try. I'd like to hear how it goes after he tries it. It is a very sad story to loose so much work on a patch.
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yevster
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 13:52:32
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Cactus Music
What I see here is a simple case of using a flawed method of saving your work. If anything Calkwalk is at fault for offering the auto save function which 90% of us know is not reliable and we use "save as" instead. Sorry you trusted the auto save.
I'm curious what beef you have with Autosave. Autosave is one of the few features in Sonar that has worked incredibly well for as long as I can remember. Try coming back from StudioOne, where autosave interval can be specified only in minutes, not changes, and autosave is modal and will lock out your controls while it happens, even during playback, Sonar's autosave may be the first feature one could really fall in love with.
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sharke
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 16:27:19
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emwhy
I also have had experience with certain older DXis where if you have "Zero Controllers" and "Patch/Controller Searchback" enabled it will reset the synth and wipe out any edits or tweaks you've done to the presets. Used to happen all the time with the old Pro 53 synth....also from Native Instruments. But fixable by disabling those options.
I have had lots of problems with NI stuff resetting their controls to zero, but it's had nothing to do with those two options (I've experimented). I've had Guitar Rig effects chains, the Solid Series bus compressor, the Supercharge compressor and some Reaktor FX ensembles reset all of their parameters to zero when hitting play for the first time after a project has loaded. The settings are there when the project loads, but they are wiped out when the transport starts. I've seen this at one time or another in X2 and X3. Usually the only thing I can do when this starts happening in a project is to insert a new track and new instances of the effect. If I just delete the effect and insert a new one on the same track, it starts happening again. I strongly suspect there is an elusive clash between Sonar and Native Instruments but I've never been able to come up with a recipe despite hours of trying. I don't hear many other people complaining about the same thing but I did manage to dig up a couple of old posts with people saying they've seen it on Guitar Rig and the Solid Series plugs. I've also seen people complain about Kontakt volumes being messed with in Sonar projects.
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jb101
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 17:31:25
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yevster
Cactus Music
What I see here is a simple case of using a flawed method of saving your work. If anything Calkwalk is at fault for offering the auto save function which 90% of us know is not reliable and we use "save as" instead. Sorry you trusted the auto save.
I'm curious what beef you have with Autosave. Autosave is one of the few features in Sonar that has worked incredibly well for as long as I can remember. Try coming back from StudioOne, where autosave interval can be specified only in minutes, not changes, and autosave is modal and will lock out your controls while it happens, even during playback, Sonar's autosave may be the first feature one could really fall in love with.
+1 here. Auto Save works flawlessly here. Very grateful that it is there. Always have it set up here, along with version-ing.
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Splat
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 18:20:04
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I don't trust auto save probably because of the early days with MS Word that offered a similar facility. Also windows has a tendancy to lock files unnecessarily. So really I don't trust Microsoft that handles the saving (via OS) not Cakewalk. It may work perfectly but I prefer 'save as'. With 'save as' you can also write the history as it goes along. Like : 'Song1 vocal overdubs' so you can see each stage. Works for me anyway.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 18:28:44
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@Sharke - With regard to the notion of NI software and volumes having a mind of their own and all that - I JUST had that happen in the current project I am working on - AND I finally figured it out.
What was happening was that for Battery 3, its master volume kept jumping back to some lower value than what I would set it to, as soon as I would hit play. Drove me NUTS.
It turns out that it is tied to the MIDI track volume fader. If I move the fader up or down while the Battery 3 UI is open, I can watch the master volume for Batter 3 rotate higher and lower.
This behavior does NOT go the other way around - in that if instead of moving the channel strip slider up or down to adjust volume, I rather go to the Battery 3 UI and rotate the master volume up or down, Sonar's midi track channel strip slider does NOT move with it. The movement of the Battery 3 master volume ONLY occurs by itself when the channel strip slider is moved.
THIS is why the Battery 3 Master Volume appears to JUMP. Because it is tied to the midi track channel strip slider, but does not move that slider when the master volume knob is rotated in Battery 3, as soon as Play is commenced, the Battery 3 UI Master Volume knob 'jumps' back to mirror the setting from the channel strip slider at the time Play was started.
Additionally, the Battery 3 UI Master Volume knob is operating at a different scale level than that of the channel strip slider. The midi track channel strip slider represents midi parameter values of 0-127, and the Battery 3 master volume knob represents volumes between about -128 DB and about +12 DB.
SO, I have not figured out if this can be disconnected, or if that DOES get figured out, will the volume then behave as it should, but at least I now KNOW what is happening.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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stxx
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 18:56:21
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People need to read the reference manual because it usually explains what the features do in great detail. Freezing only freezes the audio just like processing effects does. Synths are different from audio effects in how freeze works. Ultimately as many here have said, if you don't back things up before you start freezing tracks, you will get in trouble. There is no limit to how many version you could have of a project so when you create a new CWP file, just name it descriptively so if you need to go back ever, you know where. It works just like it is supposed to work and I freeze tracks often and only got in trouble when I try to take a shortcuts or get lazy. You'll notice that synths are not really on the actual audio track and freezing a synth track doesn't freeze the synth itself but the audio that is output from it, unlike plugins where ARE on the audio track and whos settings do get frozen along with the track
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jb101
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 19:31:17
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I think that there is a general misunderstanding of how Auto-Save works with Sonar. It does not affect normal saving of projects. It saves a separate file called something like "Autosave_copy_of_filename#x". It only saves when a project is "idle".
I also use "Save As", "Save" and "Version-ing".
If a project crashes just before I use "Save As" or such, then "Auto-save" may well just prevent losing some work. It doesn't cost anything, doesn't interrupt workflow, and works perfectly well here. I can't speak for how a similar-ish feature used to work in an early version of a different program.
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Grem
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 20:48:59
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Noel, and others, I have a old project that I have brought up through different versions if Sonar.
I last saved it in X3d. I opened it recently with X3e and the VVocal clips didn't behave as expected and when I was finally able to get the VV interface to open to work on these clips, the UI was huge and chopped in half.
Also when I unfroze the track, the VV adjustments I made were gone.
Don't know if this is related but thought I'd mention it.
Grem
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Silicon Audio
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/09 22:33:27
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paulo
aglewis723
I do use the auto-save feature, just that these synths were frozen about 2 months ago; I just unfroze them now, so all backups when the synths were not frozen are gone :(
I don't share the love for autosave as I like to choose when saves are made and wouldn't want it to kick in when I had just messed something up. It also gives me the opportunity to just close a project without saving if I have screwed something up and revert back to how it was. That aside, I'm not quite following you here......are you saying that because you did an unfreeze on a synth in a project that it also affected your back up .cwp file of the same project ?
Once you realised something was wrong, I'm assuming that you tried the undo function or backing out of the project without saving ?
Have you tried out the "versioning" feature in Sonar. This along with autosave is great, it means you can revert to previous versions without needing to save to a new file name manually every time.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
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sharke
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/10 02:17:18
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robert_e_bone
@Sharke - With regard to the notion of NI software and volumes having a mind of their own and all that - I JUST had that happen in the current project I am working on - AND I finally figured it out.
What was happening was that for Battery 3, its master volume kept jumping back to some lower value than what I would set it to, as soon as I would hit play. Drove me NUTS.
It turns out that it is tied to the MIDI track volume fader. If I move the fader up or down while the Battery 3 UI is open, I can watch the master volume for Batter 3 rotate higher and lower.
This behavior does NOT go the other way around - in that if instead of moving the channel strip slider up or down to adjust volume, I rather go to the Battery 3 UI and rotate the master volume up or down, Sonar's midi track channel strip slider does NOT move with it. The movement of the Battery 3 master volume ONLY occurs by itself when the channel strip slider is moved.
THIS is why the Battery 3 Master Volume appears to JUMP. Because it is tied to the midi track channel strip slider, but does not move that slider when the master volume knob is rotated in Battery 3, as soon as Play is commenced, the Battery 3 UI Master Volume knob 'jumps' back to mirror the setting from the channel strip slider at the time Play was started.
Additionally, the Battery 3 UI Master Volume knob is operating at a different scale level than that of the channel strip slider. The midi track channel strip slider represents midi parameter values of 0-127, and the Battery 3 master volume knob represents volumes between about -128 DB and about +12 DB.
SO, I have not figured out if this can be disconnected, or if that DOES get figured out, will the volume then behave as it should, but at least I now KNOW what is happening.
Bob Bone
That's very interesting Bob, and makes me wonder if anything MIDI related could be behind the problems I've had with NI plugin settings resetting themselves on playback. I always wondered if some kind of MIDI event on playback was making them do it. I just tried this with Battery 4 though (I don't have Battery 3 installed anymore) and I can't reproduce it. I take it you could just insert Battery 3 along with an audio/MIDI track pair, move the MIDI fader and the master volume in Battery moves with it?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/10 05:01:52
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@Sharke - I hadn't seen that behavior with any other parameter within Battery 3. Further, with the midi track channel strip's slider moved all the way up to a value of 127, the Battery 3 Master Volume knob still only goes to a maximum of -6 DB. I would rather be able to set the gain higher in Battery 3 than have it lower there and have to turn up the gain in the channel strip.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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FCCfirstclass
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/10 06:51:11
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jb101
yevster
Cactus Music
What I see here is a simple case of using a flawed method of saving your work. If anything Calkwalk is at fault for offering the auto save function which 90% of us know is not reliable and we use "save as" instead. Sorry you trusted the auto save.
I'm curious what beef you have with Autosave. Autosave is one of the few features in Sonar that has worked incredibly well for as long as I can remember. Try coming back from StudioOne, where autosave interval can be specified only in minutes, not changes, and autosave is modal and will lock out your controls while it happens, even during playback, Sonar's autosave may be the first feature one could really fall in love with.
+1 here. Auto Save works flawlessly here. Very grateful that it is there.
Always have it set up here, along with version-ing.
Same with me. Auto save has helped me out a few times that was worth the price of admission. I do save often and have offline backups as well, but a few BSOD in the XP days showed me that the auto save saved my bacon.
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paulo
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/10 08:06:39
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Silicon Audio
paulo
aglewis723
I do use the auto-save feature, just that these synths were frozen about 2 months ago; I just unfroze them now, so all backups when the synths were not frozen are gone :(
I don't share the love for autosave as I like to choose when saves are made and wouldn't want it to kick in when I had just messed something up. It also gives me the opportunity to just close a project without saving if I have screwed something up and revert back to how it was. That aside, I'm not quite following you here......are you saying that because you did an unfreeze on a synth in a project that it also affected your back up .cwp file of the same project ?
Once you realised something was wrong, I'm assuming that you tried the undo function or backing out of the project without saving ?
Have you tried out the "versioning" feature in Sonar. This along with autosave is great, it means you can revert to previous versions without needing to save to a new file name manually every time.
I don't save to a new file name, I just save what I definitely want to save as I go along and if I screw anything up I close the project without saving, which is much the same thing as versioning as I see it. If I know I'm doing something that is a bit of a risk to the current state of the project, like sometimes when it's just not working for me and I reset the faders etc and start again from scratch, I "save as" before I start and reset the mix in that version, so the main project is still intact and the newer one becomes "alternate" mix until such time as I have convinced myself that it is better than the original, at which point it will replace it. Sometimes I can't decide and keep both. I back all this up to other drives, so I'm reasonably well covered and haven't lost anything more than a few minutes work since I got into this habit years ago. I'm reluctant to change routines now as the habit is just ingrained now and it seems to work well for me. On a per project level, none of it really matters anyway, it's just me messing around for my own interests. I'm still interested to to know if/how the unfreezing affected the OP's back up copy though as I have always assumed that my back-ups were immune to any changes made in another copy of the project.
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musicroom
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/10 08:10:43
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I think we all feel for the OP. I don't think I would be surprised if I were to unfreeze a track that no longer had the same version plugs loaded and it messed up. Other than that, I would think it should always work. But I'm learning here that may not always be true... Hopefully the OP didn't save over top of the busted project and still has his original version. With that said, Ctrl S is a key sequence I've used for years regardless of the software I'm using. I learned that the hard way. I want to also mention that once I realize I'm deviating from the original project idea in a session, then I do a "Save As" for versioning. After then it's back to to the trusty Ctrl S and do that numerous times during the session.
post edited by musicroom - 2014/04/10 15:29:22
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Kev999
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/10 09:19:26
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musicroom
...Ctrl S is a key sequence I've used for years regardless of the software I'm using...
My left hand is habitually poised for this key combination.
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dwardzala
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/10 10:42:34
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My left hand is habitually poised for this and Ctrl-z (especially while recording).
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
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Kev999
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/10 15:36:40
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It's handy that these three keys (Ctrl, S & Z) are all close together on the keyboard.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/10 17:31:25
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I'm one of those people with a V-Studio, and there's a dedicated Save button. I cut a red adhesive label to size and affixed it to the top of the button not just so I could hit it without thinking, but so that it would always scream at me "save me, dude!"
Also I'm not quite sure why, but it always seems that the projects where I save regularly don't crash. I wonder if saving does some kind of system flush or something that reduces the chance of glitches.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/11 14:37:04
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Anderton
but it always seems that the projects where I save regularly don't crash. I wonder if saving does some kind of system flush or something that reduces the chance of glitches.
ive said the same thing. im curious if it is some kind of disk cache clearing of glitches, witches and ghosts. the more I save, it seems the less I am opt for a random failure.
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Splat
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Re: Sonar Destroyed My Song (Thanks Cakewalk!)
2014/04/11 14:56:13
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Well the implication then would be that something somewhere, a plugin or something, is leaky.
It should also be noted that Sonar crashes when using undo in certain combinations. Saving clears the undo history doesn't it?
From my angle I rarely see Sonar crash even after 8 hours solid use.
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