ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in Sonar!

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sharke
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2014/04/10 00:41:10 (permalink)

ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in Sonar!

I've recently been trying to get to grips with ACT, it's about time 
 
However, as I have discovered, while you can map the controls of a VST in the effects bin to your controllers, you cannot map the controls of a VST in a ProChannel FX Chain. Is this correct? If so, it seems to be a ridiculous limitation. If like me you do everything in the ProChannel, it makes ACT absolutely useless in terms of mapping controllers to 3rd party effect parameters. 
 
So next I figured OK, so I'll create an FX Chain control and assign it to the VST parameter in question. Okay, I was able to do this and the control showed up in ACT. However, when I turn the rotary on my controller past a certain speed (really not that fast), the corresponding knob on the VST turns in big jerks and not smoothly as you'd expect. It's therefore useless as a performance control. Why is this?  If I assign a rotary to a synth knob with remote control (not using ACT), I can turn it as fast as I like and the synth knob follows my movements smoothly and faithfully. Is there something wrong with ACT in this respect? 
 
Above all, you should be able to directly map the controls of ProChannel FX Chain VST's to a controller using ACT, just like you can with a VST in an effects bin. Is this a bug or is there some reasoning behind why you can't do this? Because I'm pretty sure the average user is going to think there should be no difference between effects bin plugins and FX Chain plugins with respect to ACT. 
 
Would appreciate some feedback from anyone who's had more success with all of this 
post edited by sharke - 2014/04/10 00:50:11

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    sharke
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/10 00:51:38 (permalink)
    So it seems that the problem with jerky knob movement is only an issue when I'm using ACT to control ProChannel FX Chain controls. Has anyone else noticed this? They only move smoothly if you move the control very slowly. Any faster and they just jump around in big jerks. 

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    sharke
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/10 01:11:54 (permalink)
    Update - I've found that the jerky knob problem affects different plugins differently. For instance, if I set an FX Chain control to a knob on Native Instrument's Driver plugin and then map a rotary to this control via ACT, it moves in big jerks both in the ACT interface and on the plugin. If however I do the same but with Ohmicide, the rotary moves in jerks in the ACT interface but moves smoothly in Ohmicide. 

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    gswitz
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/10 19:54:24 (permalink)
    Sharke, even recently you couldn't use act on those nobs at all. It's nice to know it's working now. In the video in my signature where I demo act using a foot pedal with TH2, I mention that I can't get it to work in Pro Channel.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    sharke
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/11 02:21:21 (permalink)
    Yeah I think you mentioned that in a past thread as well? I read a couple of relevant threads last night. The FX Chain control knob ACT functionality seems to need some kinks ironed out - for instance, with my A-PRO, control knobs will only map automatically to the first 4 rotaries. After that, I have to use ACT Learn to map further knobs. The other annoying thing is like I say, some VST controls will respond very jerkily to the controls to the point where they're unusable. 

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    gswitz
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/11 06:50:58 (permalink)
    Yep. It's got kinks. I just bypass it. I find I have trouble even mapping more fx chain nobs to the settings in the control window. It doesn't work so great. And for the nobs on the FX chain, if you move them you move the controls in the target effect, but they don't work the other way around where if you directly move the controls in the effect it updates the FX chain nobs. So you can't lose track of where you were tweaking or things get out of whack.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    Kev999
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/11 20:27:34 (permalink)
    I was going to suggest trying to use the "Assignable Controls" feature with ProChannel, but now that I've checked it out I see that it doesn't seem to be possible.
     

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    sharke
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/13 12:50:14 (permalink)
    Kev999
    I was going to suggest trying to use the "Assignable Controls" feature with ProChannel, but now that I've checked it out I see that it doesn't seem to be possible.
     

     
    For the life of me I don't know why FX Chain control knobs aren't compatible with remote control. Assigning plugin controls to controllers is a mess in Sonar compared to how it is (allegedly) in DAW's like Abelton. I'd love to see a major overhaul of this in a future version. 
     

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    dubdisciple
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/14 15:31:35 (permalink)
    ACT drives me nuts.  Every now and then I can get things setup the way i want but then it will just stop working
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    gswitz
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/14 18:03:58 (permalink)
    Idk I think act works pretty well. The only problem I have is with FX chains and mapping to those nobs. I kinda think the FX chain nobs are only partially implemented. Like if you turn the nob on the effect, the FX chain nob doesn't follow.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    sharke
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/14 19:11:26 (permalink)
    gswitz
    Idk I think act works pretty well. The only problem I have is with FX chains and mapping to those nobs. I kinda think the FX chain nobs are only partially implemented. Like if you turn the nob on the effect, the FX chain nob doesn't follow.



     
    Aside from the FX chain controls, I don't see why it shouldn't just work with VST's in the FX chain like any other VST, i.e. the controls appear in ACT when the plugin's in focus. I seem to recall reading a thread about this from way back in which a Baker said something along the lines of "the FX Chains are intended to be seen as a single unit" by way of an explanation, but I don't really agree with this - to me, the FX Chains are just a way to host VST's in the ProChannel. You're going to insert them wherever you need an effect. You might have a chain of effects in an FX Chain, or you might just have one that's nestled in between two modules. I don't see why VST's within them should be treated differently to any other VST. 
     
    And while I'm on the subject, I would love to be able to see resizeable FX Chains so that you could have a "mini" version in cases where you only have one effect in them. They waste a lot of vertical space in the ProChannel when they're almost empty. 

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    Anderton
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/14 21:03:31 (permalink)
    dubdisciple
    ACT drives me nuts.  Every now and then I can get things setup the way i want but then it will just stop working



    I have a different way of using ACT that's less sophisticated but a whole lot simpler. You can read about it here. It doesn't solve the FX chain/VST plug-in thing with ACT, it's just an easy way to use ACT.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    gswitz
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/14 21:33:19 (permalink)
    Sharke, I think that when they were planning FX Chains they weren't thinking PC yet. Remember? They brought them in as a tidy addition to the FX Bin. It was a way to sort of have templates of insert-fx that you can use as a jumping off place.
     
    The same behavior occurs when you convert the FX Bin to an FX Chain as when you use the FX Chain in the PC. In other words, you can't use Act directly on the effects in the chain any more. You have to map in nobs.
     
    Now, when I use this sort of FX chain (the bin sort) the nobs do show up in the Act window. They are also controllable using ACT.
     
    I tried creating FX Chains this way and saving them and then loading them into the PC FX Chain module, but still only 1 of the parameters in the FX Chain in the PC is automatable with ACT.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #13
    sharke
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/14 22:51:53 (permalink)
    I came to Sonar with X1 so I have no experience of the pre-ProChannel days. To be honest I've never really used the regular FX bins - I'm a big user of ProChannel modules and to mix the ProChannel with the FX bin seems illogical and awkward to me so I just left it alone. I found the thread I was talking about earlier in which Noel offers an explanation. He says "The idea behind FXChains is to provide a composite object that hides the underlying effects. There is no way via ACT to switch between the chain parameters and the constituent effects. Even if we did that (which would be complex) it would be pretty confusing to know what the current context was via an act surface."
     
    http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2407093
     
    I understand the thinking behind FX Chains being a composite object in the context of the FX bin. But ideally this philosophy should be updated for the context of the ProChannel. In an FX bin, there's no other reason to have them. But in the ProChannel they serve a wider purpose, which is surely to provide a way to insert regular VST's in the channel. After all this is the only way to use regular VST's in the ProChannel. Therefore, any VST's within the ProChannel should be treated as VST's anywhere else, i.e. effects in their own right and not just part of some composite object. Of course the "composite object" convenience is still there if you need it. 
     
    I'm not a programmer and even if I was I would have no idea of the way these things are implemented in Sonar at the code level, but I'm having trouble imagining why it would be complex or confusing for Sonar to know what the "current context" was via an ACT surface. After all, how is the current context decided in other cases? By whatever is in focus? Surely FX Chain VST's in the ProChannel can be given focus too - you can select them within the ProChannel, or you can open their GUI's and click on them. 
     

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    sharke
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/14 22:52:46 (permalink)
    Anderton
    dubdisciple
    ACT drives me nuts.  Every now and then I can get things setup the way i want but then it will just stop working



    I have a different way of using ACT that's less sophisticated but a whole lot simpler. You can read about it here. It doesn't solve the FX chain/VST plug-in thing with ACT, it's just an easy way to use ACT.




    I went through your instructions and it is indeed easy to set it up like that. It's just a pity I don't use FX bin for my VST's!

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    gswitz
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/14 23:00:35 (permalink)
    Sharke,
     
    I nod as I read you're post. You are right. FX Chains in the PC need some work. When the PC was first released, FX Chains weren't included. They were kinda an afterthought and haven't received much love in the PC. Act is one of the things they need. I also think two way control value updates from AND to the VSTs would be useful.
     
    With touch, the number of places you might choose to modify a parameter is boundless. It's too much of a pain to remember, oh wait... that is mapped to a PC nob. If you're going to both with nobs in the FX Bins, they should should both Publish and Subscribe. I'm guessing this is tricky since they don't control the VSTs. Perhaps when the FX Chain gets the focus it could poll the VSTs for updates? idk.
     
    I also like your idea of a mini chain to save on real-estate in the PC.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #16
    dubdisciple
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/15 14:10:37 (permalink)
    Anderton
    dubdisciple
    ACT drives me nuts.  Every now and then I can get things setup the way i want but then it will just stop working



    I have a different way of using ACT that's less sophisticated but a whole lot simpler. You can read about it here. It doesn't solve the FX chain/VST plug-in thing with ACT, it's just an easy way to use ACT.


    Thanks.  This approach does work better.  I'm still having a few odd issues and may need to start from scratch. It is a lot closer to being functional.
    #17
    Anderton
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    Re: ACT, ProChannel FX Chains and MIDI control of effect parameters - such an ordeal in So 2014/04/15 16:22:14 (permalink)
    dubdisciple
    Anderton
    dubdisciple
    ACT drives me nuts.  Every now and then I can get things setup the way i want but then it will just stop working



    I have a different way of using ACT that's less sophisticated but a whole lot simpler. You can read about it here. It doesn't solve the FX chain/VST plug-in thing with ACT, it's just an easy way to use ACT.


    Thanks.  This approach does work better.  I'm still having a few odd issues and may need to start from scratch. It is a lot closer to being functional.




    The conceptual difference is that instead of treating ACT like a dedicated control surface, I treat it as a scratchpad for editing. 90% of the time that's all I really want anyway.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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