(Resolved) Distortion when recording audio via USB

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pdsd@yahoo.com
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2014/04/14 00:09:05 (permalink)

(Resolved) Distortion when recording audio via USB

 
Hi guys! I've been lurking for a while, and you all give excellent advice. I hope you can help me.
 
I'm trying to record from my keyboard, a Korg Kronos, into an audio track. I'm recording from the USB output from my Kronos directly into my PC. Within a few moments of my starting to record, the audio meter pegs, and upon playback I find I'm just recording unpleasant distorted audio. I have a screenshot here. Track 2 is my audio track, and I stopped it after a few seconds...
 
This is what is sounds like, but PLEASE turn down your monitors!
(
 
These are my audio settings:



 
This is the first time I've tried to record audio with my new rig. I really appreciate any assistance anyone can give. 
 
Thank you,
   Paul DiGiorgio
 
 
Sonar Version: X3e Build 352 Producer Edition x64 
Audio Interface: PC USB
Computer: i5-4570s, 8Gb RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64
Keyboard: Korg Kronos Workstation X

post edited by pdsd@yahoo.com - 2014/04/26 10:40:27
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    pdsd@yahoo.com
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/14 00:13:00 (permalink)
    It looks like the URL to my MP3 sample is stripped, but that's probably for the best . Let's just say, it's as bad as it looks from that first screenshot. 
    #2
    Anderton
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/14 00:40:51 (permalink)
    Try jacking the latency way up and seeing what happens. Then with the setting still high, try MME.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #3
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/14 07:55:58 (permalink)
    The Kronos audio over USB is pretty bad, most people are using ASIO4ALL with it. Which brings its own problems and I wouldn't normally recommend it, but it seems to be the way to go for now.
    Alas, this is an area where the Mac has the clear edge as the CoreAudio implementation works fine without any settings. I use it with my iPad all the time.

    In addition to what Anderton said, also try lower latencies. While it's true that usually setting the latency too low is more likely to cause problems, setting the latency too high can produce similar artifacts.
    #4
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/14 09:30:40 (permalink)
    Regardless of the capabilities of the Kronos to pass audio through the USB connection, I think your computer not having a dedicated audio interface will plague you with audio dropouts, crackles, and lag between when you press a note and when you hear it play back through Sonar.
     
    Audio interfaces have drivers that route the massive data generated from a streaming audio application, such as Sonar, to the specialized circuitry of the audio interface, where the interface handles any digital/analog conversion needed.
     
    Without such an audio interface to do all of that data conversion, that task would fall to your computer's CPU, putting a SERIOUS burden on it, and almost always this causes huge problems with dropouts, crackles, pops, distortion, and lag.
     
    I HIGHLY recommend you consider picking up a dedicated audio interface, and getting it installed and configured for Sonar on your computer.
     
    A basic, but good sounding, audio interface will start at around $150, and will range from there on up to well over $1000, depending on features and inputs/outputs.
     
    If you are primarily using soft synths, you won't need so many inputs or pre-amps, and you could get an interface that just had maybe 1-2 input jacks (usually these are combination mic pre-amp / instrument jacks), and these are the ones in the $150 price range.
     
    If instead you need a bunch of inputs, for several guitars and some vocals, then you would want to pick up an interface that had maybe 8 sets of input jacks.  I have such an interface, and it ran me about $500.
     
    But whatever level of features and inputs of the interface, the unsung hero with them is that the interface takes on the formidable task of the data conversions, and even the $150 interfaces will produce a nice clean sound, free of audio dropouts and all of that.
     
    Most interfaces seem to work well with ASIO driver modes, and while that is not universally true, it is a generally safe bet that this would be the case with whatever you were to pick up.
     
    ASIO4ALL is a band aid sort of freeware driver application that really uses WDM under the covers, but it masquerades as an ASIO driver to Windows.  While it works for some people, far more folks have headaches with it, so I cannot recommend its use.
     
    IF indeed your Kronos supports audio through the USB connection, I think it would also benefit from also using the audio interface to process the data conversions, and that might make it a workable thing to do.
     
    So, that's my 2 cents worth - I hope you get everything worked out - if you decide to pick up an audio interface and have any trouble, I would be happy to guide you through getting it configured for use with Sonar.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #5
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/14 09:45:03 (permalink)
    The Kronos functions as an audio interface. The problem is Korg have not written an ASIO driver for it.
    #6
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/14 10:51:30 (permalink)
    Thank goodness I pleaded my ignorance up front about the Kronos.  :)
     
    Thanks for clarifying.
     
    I think then that I will pass on trying to assist in this thread, if the direction is to use the Kronos as an interface then I can contribute nothing of any useful assistance.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #7
    pdsd@yahoo.com
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/14 12:14:23 (permalink)
    Thank you Anderton and Sanderxpander for your advice about the latency settings. I'm at work now, I'll give it a shot this evening. I have found that MME gave me all sorts of problems, as did ASIO4ALL. 
     
    Robert, I actually do have a Scarlett 18i6, but I was getting a Lot of hiss on my audio recordings. I was doing the following:
         Kronos -> 1/4" cables to the Scarlett -> USB to the PC
    So I figured I was getting the hiss from my 1/4" cables, since they are analog. This was on a previous PC, so when I picked up my new PC I decided to go purely digital, so that why I'm not using the Scarlett now. I'm happy to try it again though, maybe that's the best way. 
     
    Thank you,
          Paul DiGiorgio
    #8
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/14 12:36:04 (permalink)
    If the Scarlett has an optical in you could use the digital connection on the Kronos. You will need to stick to 48KHz which is the K's fixed samplerate though. And hook it up both ways to effectively send audio back and forth and sync the clock (one as master, one as slave). That said, I don't see why you should get hiss using an analog connection. Does the Scarlett accept balanced inputs? I think so, in that case you could try TRS cables, since the Kronos outputs are balanced.
     
    I definitely recommend using the Scarlett.

    EDIT
    It just occurred to me that the Kronos, by default, routes the analog inputs on the back to its L/R main outs. If you happen to have the gains open very far (especially on mic setting) you can create hiss this way. Either close the gains or change the routing in the global menu, audio tab.
    post edited by Sanderxpander - 2014/04/14 12:50:19
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    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/14 13:54:55 (permalink)
    It seems to me that you have good enough gear to get this all playing nicely together quietly, so hang in there.
     
    Until the Kronos comes out with some better drivers, perhaps using the Scarlett is worth trying - as long as getting the hiss out of it can be accomplished.
     
    When I record audio from my keyboard's output jacks, I don't get any sort of hiss - it is not digital, but it is not noisy either.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #10
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/14 14:01:40 (permalink)
    Though nobody can see into the future, the general consensus on korgforums.com is that there will be no ASIO driver from Korg. Certainly Dan Phillips, Rich Formidoni and Jack Hotop have never even given any hint of support on the idea, and they really do tend to listen to the user base.

    Definitely try to make the Scarlett work. Check those inputs!
    #11
    tlw
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/16 07:06:59 (permalink)
    I don't know the Kronos and might well be missing something obvious, but the wave forms in that screen shot look very much like digital clipping caused by overloading a convertor to me.

    What happens if you turn the volume of the Kronos down? Does it have it's own mixer software? If so what happens if you turn that down?

    If you're recording in 24 bit aim for a peak recording level of -6 or even -12 Db.

    As for using the Scarlett, a low level of hiss will almost certainly be "lost in the mix" of the finished project, especially if a bit of noise gating is done and the recording levels aren't too high. I use a variety of hardware synths through my UA 101 and the level of hiss is negligible even using unbalanced cables and analogue hardware. It can help if the synth is set as loud as the interface and recording level require so the pre-amps in the interface can be run at lower levels to get cleaner gain staging.

    Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board,
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    #12
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/16 07:21:28 (permalink)
    The Kronos USB audio mimics the L/R outputs. There shouldn't be any clipping and if there is it should be immediately obvious during playing.
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    Bule
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/16 09:04:17 (permalink)
    tlw
    I don't know the Kronos and might well be missing something obvious, but the wave forms in that screen shot look very much like digital clipping caused by overloading a convertor to me.



    ^^^this ,if you look at the meters you are way to hot coming in. You've got to get those levels out of the red and into the comfort zone. Somewhere around +odb would work.

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    #14
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/16 09:09:14 (permalink)
    While it may seem that way, the sound doesn't even leave the digital domain if you record the Kronos using its USB connection. It seems to be clipping digitally somewhere internally, but if it's in the K it would be audible over the L/R outputs.
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    Bule
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/16 11:40:24 (permalink)
    You would think that but maybe the path is different from the actual drivers from the preamps. If all of the programs do this then there is a problem in the internal interface USB part of the K. If it's just that particular patch then it's a programming issue perhaps like a big attack rate or something. If you take the 1/4" phono plug and send it to the return of an amp and it's distorted than that will at least tell you that it's distorting before you even get to the interface.

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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/16 12:44:05 (permalink)
    Hang on, do you have input echo enabled during record? You could be having a feedback loop of some sort. Although I would kind of expect that to be instantly problematic, not "within a few moments". In your screenshot, your meter seemingly remains at 0dB, suggesting constant clipping is coming in over the USB connection, without you even playing anything. If you are also using the K to monitor the sound, you can't really use it to record, because anything you route to the L/R outputs (including the USB ins) will be recorded.
    #17
    Bule
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/16 13:09:48 (permalink)
    Sanderxpander
     In your screenshot, your meter seemingly remains at 0dB, suggesting constant clipping is coming in over the USB connection, without you even playing anything.



     
    Those meters are way pass 0db in the screenshot. They are pegging out at +6db

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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/16 13:15:38 (permalink)
    There's no such thing as +6dB peak in the digital domain. They are at 0dB. You may be confusing the meter with the fader scale.
    #19
    Bule
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/16 13:47:37 (permalink)
    Sanderxpander
    There's no such thing as +6dB peak in the digital domain. They are at 0dB. You may be confusing the meter with the fader scale.

    K yeah when you said meter was thinking input meter from the cord to the interface. Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no signal through the usb port. You have 2 power supply wires +5 volts and two control wires and 1 ground. ? I'm thinking he's clipping out of the main out of the K. I think the USB is ok.

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    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/16 18:23:32 (permalink)
    I'm thinking more along the lines of a driver issue or feedback loop at the moment. The way the K works there is just no way the sound goes analog before arriving at the USB connection.
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    pdsd@yahoo.com
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    Re: Distortion when recording audio via USB 2014/04/26 10:43:31 (permalink)
    So thank you everyone, I finally have this resolved. I had to rip out the Korg USB drivers and re-install them. Once I did that, recording worked like a charm! :)
    #22
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