Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference!

Good news!
 
:-)

Nice post Jeff.  I too can't believe the increase in level and decrease in noise.  I bloody no and I love it too!

I've been jamming to Pink Floyd through my UR-44 using the Yamaha amp sim and added stereo reverb DSP.  It sounds r   e   a  l   l  y good.  I've got my master volume on the UR-44 at 9 A.M.  
 

I think the combination jacks that are wired to work as either a balanced or unbalanced input contribute to mixed experiences.
 
A well designed unbalanced input circuit isn't nearly as bad as one that is kludged in to a connector and input circuit that is designed to be optimized for a balanced signal.
 
In other words, devices with combo jacks make it seem as if you are directly comparing the broader concepts of balanced vs unbalanced connections but in reality you are not actually comparing circuits that have been optimized for both. You are more likely comparing a circumstance that has been optimized to a circumstance that has been kludged.
 
If unbalanced were inherently terrible, it would have been put out to pasture a long time ago.
 
Having said that, most of my gear has balanced interconnections. I have purchased it so that I can enjoy the benefits of balanced connections. The few pieces of gear I have that were designed primarily for unbalanced interconnection seem to integrate very nicely with the studio as a whole.
 
 
best regards,
mike

I guess what I was trying to say is along these lines; the extra 6dB you get with the balanced connection when you use all the wires is a direct comparison to when you use the same connections with only 2 of the wires.
 
If you had two discrete sets of connections, one that is unbalanced and one that is balanced you may find the comparison more favorable. Yes, there will probably be a a small amount of noise added to the SNR of the unbalanced send, and yes there may be a small amount of noise entering on the cable run, but you may, possibly, find a lot less additional noise than when you simply throw out half your signal by not using the extra wire on a connection that is designed to use one and then use make up gain to get to the nominal levels.
 
Part of this idea includes the consideration that it is rare to run the device doing the sending at such a hot level that it is at the threshold of a SNR problem. If the device has a unbalanced send that was made to sound good at a comparable level as some balanced send we refer to then the differences in perceived results will be much slighter than if we simply throw half the signal away as in the examples cited in the first few posts.
 
In general, I agree with everything you say about the benefit of balanced connections. :-) I'm just making a very small point about how the experience of observing a large difference in one circumstance does not lead to an absolute conclusion that the two technologies always provide such different results. 
 
 
 
 
 
And now because I can't resist: :-)
 
"Anyway, the general consensus amongst folks that would be identified as authorities on the topic of electronic noise reduction is that single-ended inputs are inherently bad when applied to professional and/or commercial applications. This does not apply to single-ended sources (outputs) - these can be made to work with differential inputs."
 
I agree 99.9% but I can't help but think of the many times I have experienced huge SPL in commercial venues with low noise playback on a large PA system being fed by an iSomething and its unbalanced "1/8" output connection into the "tape in" on a Pacific rim mixer.
 
 
all the best,
mike

I just want to share my practical experiences. As a composer, connecting synthesisers to a mixer presents the variables that have been mentioned here. Even with 7 or so in my case they have different output arrangments. But they also have different amounts of quiescent noise that exist alongside the signal.
 
I am not referring to noise that is picked up on the line either between the synth and the mixer.  (I have never had a problem with that)  I am referring to the ambient or quiescent noise of the machine itself.  With something like the older Kurzweil K2000 that background noise is reasonably high and audible.  That output is single ended.  (Note: it is still mostly not an issue. The signal is still very loud compared to this noise and the noise will most often be masked. Noise gets heard more with sounds that fade away slowly and have long tails and start getting very quiet. With some effective downward expansion the synth can be made to be dead silent when not making any sound. Any downward expander VST will do a great job once you have printed this track in your DAW. I have a nice hardware one which kills any noise when not sounding, I patch it over that K2000 permamently. It does a lovely job of easing in the gain reduction as the signal almost disappears, Internal Reverbs will extend the tails of patches too..)
 
On the newer model that noise is considerably less and the signal level is much higher and all on a balanced output system. (No downward expander required)  There are many reasons why that background noise is there.  So you now choose to use the output options in two ways either single ended or balanced.  I was using the single ended connection for a while and it proved fine except the background noise was just present but very low.
 
However when you use the fully balanced interconnection between this and the mixer, the signal level jumps 6 dB but not only that any quiescent noise that was present before has now completely gone and I am now dealing with a machine that is dead silent when not making a sound.  Even with everything maxed out on the channel strip it is still dead slient.  I am amazed at how quiet they have got it. This is when using a balanced interconnection is doing something damn useful.
 
It is better to start with a dead silent machine if you can because many processes later down the line can bring up even low level quiescent noise.  But when things are dead silent many effects processes later won't be bringing up any noise because it not there. Saves time later cleaning up noisy tracks in your mix or tracks that are not sounding but still have low levels of noise present.
 
Some synths have only a single ended output and work perfectly with an unbalanced lead to a line input that is unbalanced.  This can work as well as any balanced system.  With some instruments the output is still very high + 4 to +8 dBu on average with a loud preset selected and when the sound comes to rest and you are just hearing the output quiescent noise then with some devices it is amazingly low and the machine sounds perfectly silent even with the channel fader up high.  Obviously those manufacturers had done a mightly fine job on their single ended output design.  I suspect some may have a form of downward expansion on the very output stage to create a form of noise reduction to eliminate any noise that has come from earlier stages. It works great because then you will never hear the noise of the machine itself, the output signal is so loud compared to it and masks any noise very effectively.
 
I did find out something else though. Be careful taking a balanced output from a synth on a TRS connector and using an XLR male plug on the other end to connect direct to a mic input. No issue from an audio perspective but if you apply phantom power for any reason you are now sending +48V to the outputs of your precious synth. I checked with Kurzweil on this and they said in no uncertain terms it would have blown the output stage. The Samson mixer I use has a balanced line input next door to the XLR input which feeds the same Mic pre anyway but it is DC isolated and safe. All balanced mixer line inputs will be the same.

Woke up this morning... :-)
 
Or perhaps, when you mention the "term" symmetrical you are referring to the send devices capability to send a signal along the two lines so that they exactly reflect each other as polar opposites? In other words, the device may deviate in level, system noise, or distortion etc. and so when two signal arrive at the input the recombination does not add up to an exact doubling of level?
 
... always happy to learn! :-) Sometimes I act too big for my britches. :-)

Bill, if you are out there... I've been waiting (and hoping) to learn my lesson... and find out what I said wrong about symmetry in the past few posts.
 
Thanks!
 
:-)

Thanks for taking the time Bill!
 
The idea I mentioned about the sine wave seemed, in retrospect, to misapply to the point of seeming like a silly outburst, and then I felt like I was grasping to offer a pertinent explanation.
 
I appreciate the reminders to stay on point. :-)

Hi Bill, Thanks for the info about the InGenius chip, I'll make a point of reading up about it and then see where that takes me. :-)