Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference!

Author
Rimshot
Max Output Level: -29 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4625
  • Joined: 2010/12/09 12:51:08
  • Location: California
  • Status: offline
2014/04/17 14:39:31 (permalink)

Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference!

I should have known better...
So I had my DAW main line outputs connected to my powered monitors using really good 1/4" TS cords.
Then, I installed TRS 1/4" to TRS 1/4" and the signal path was much louder with much less noise.
That is because I went from unbalanced to balanced. 
I should have done this years ago!  I got Hosa cables thru Amazon.  They were the least expensive compared to MusiciansFriend or Sweetwater and with Amazon Prime, they got here in 2 days with free shipping.
 
So the lesson is don't skimp on the most basic items in your studio.  I remember all the days I used Radio Shack RCA plugs with 1/4" adapters for everything 'cause most of what I owned didn't have xlr outputs.  Now I only have a few pieces of audio gear that uses xlr and TRS inputs and outputs and I am finally taking advantage of that through the use of good cabling. 
 
I am still learning after decades doing this! 
 
Rimshot

 
 

Rimshot 

Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 
, OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
#1

19 Replies Related Threads

    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/17 15:00:54 (permalink)
    Good news!
     
    :-)


    #2
    Jeff Evans
    Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5139
    • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
    • Location: Ballarat, Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/17 17:29:48 (permalink)
    I have experienced similar things.  My new Kurzweil synth has balanced outputs too and for quite a while I was using unbalanced leads to connect it to the mixer thinking the line inputs I was using were unbalanced.  But it turned out the line lnputs were balanced instead.  So I made some quality TRS to TRS leads and installed them.
     
    Before with the unbalanced connection I was quite happy with signal level and the quiescent noise was pretty low.  But with the balanced leads the output level shot up 6 dB which was nice of course but the background noise of the machine disappeared and I mean it went totally silent!  I was stoked.  When you lower any background noise from any hardware synth like this it means less work later in terms of noise removal etc.. Some older hardware can be noisy to the point of noticing it. The original Kurzweil K2000 has unbalanced outputs and the background noise is quite high. There are ways to deal with it of course but it has to be dealt with none the less. And if you doing lots of K2000 overdubs you will get a quiescent noise built up too.  Good news is by the time they got to my current model they certainly sorted it big time.  The balanced outs are the opposite now to the unbalanced outs.  Tons of level with no noise present what so ever.
     
    I encountered it as well in that a bass player gave me for a while to test a nice Manley front end valve DI and pre for bass.  Very nice sounding thing this. I patched it into a mixdown at one stage and loved the sound of it there as well.  Manley makes beautiful gear and it sounds fat too.  It is excellent between the bass and amp or a mixer.
     
    It has a balanced XLR out and an unbalanced jack out as well. At first I was running the unbalanced out with a short lead and it gave reasonable output level with some low level background noise when feeding an amp or mixer.  I thought I would check the XLR out and I experienced the same as the Kurzweil.  A major jump in level with total cancellation of any noise component. I mean it went dead silent as well. For a piece of valve gear it sounded like the signal to noise ratio was huge. 80 to 90 or 100 dB or more.
     
    It is too easy to think that the only difference between using unbalanced leads and balanced leads is the change in level. There is often more associated with it and that can be (not always)  major drop in any background ambient or quiescent noise component.  If any output can be connected to an input and they are both balanced it is usually well worth the effort of making or buying the leads to make it happen.
     
    I am sure there are many out there who are using unbalanced leads in situations where the balanced connection could be used instead. Many line inputs on many mixers are balanced now. A lot of instruments and synths have balanced outs now as well, not all are taking advantage of it. You have to dig deep usually in the specs and you often find something relating to balanced outs if they are available.
     
    It is essential to use balanced outs to your active monitors too. Many audio interfaces feature balanced outs.
    Using balanced outs feeding your monitors allows you to get the maximum SPL level from your speakers when being driven hard, if you are ever doing that which we don't do we! (I bloody do and I love it)

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #3
    Rimshot
    Max Output Level: -29 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4625
    • Joined: 2010/12/09 12:51:08
    • Location: California
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/17 21:14:09 (permalink)
    Nice post Jeff.  I too can't believe the increase in level and decrease in noise.  I bloody no and I love it too!
    post edited by Rimshot - 2014/04/17 21:52:31

    Rimshot 

    Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 
    , OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
    #4
    mixmkr
    Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3169
    • Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/17 21:36:31 (permalink)
    My Steinberg UR-44 hooked to my Yammie actives was a total noise machine, using unbalanced cables.  Balanced solved the problem.  I thought something was defective at first, since the interface is new to me.

    some tunes: --->        www.masonharwoodproject.bandcamp.com 
    StudioCat i7 4770k 3.5gHz, 16 RAM,  Sonar Platinum, CD Arch 5.2, Steinberg UR-44
    videos--->https://www.youtube.com/user/mixmkr
     
    #5
    Rimshot
    Max Output Level: -29 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4625
    • Joined: 2010/12/09 12:51:08
    • Location: California
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/17 23:31:39 (permalink)
    I've been jamming to Pink Floyd through my UR-44 using the Yamaha amp sim and added stereo reverb DSP.  It sounds r   e   a  l   l  y good.  I've got my master volume on the UR-44 at 9 A.M.  
     

    Rimshot 

    Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 
    , OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
    #6
    wst3
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1979
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
    • Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/18 10:59:25 (permalink)
    <entering annoying mode... again>!
     
    Jeff - a minor correction please - any balanced input should be fed as a balanced input whether the source is balanced or single ended! The benefit is a reduction in noise. The magnitude of the benefit depends entirely on the designed (and executed) of the input stage.
     
    To review:
     
    A balanced source has equal impedance, with respect to ground, from each of two output pins.
    A symmetrical source presents the signal on each of two output pins, and the signal polarity (not phase) is inverted on one of the pins.
    A single-ended output has only one signal pin.
     
    A balanced input takes the difference between the signal pins. Even if there is only signal on one pin the provides immunity from induced noise because anything that is common to the two signal pins will cancel out (Common Mode Rejection).

    IF the signal appears on both pins, and one pin has the polarity inverted, then the difference becomes A - (-B) which is the same as A + B, and that's where the 6dB increase in level comes from.
     
    If you have a single-ended output feeding a balanced input there are two ways to maximize S/N ratio:
    1) you can connect the shield, through a resistor that is equal to the source impedance of the output to the inverting input pin. You can do this by using a twisted pair. This presents an equal impedance, with respect to ground, to both input pins and allows the difference function to operate properly.

    2) If you have a transformer, or more recently the InGenius(tm) chip as the first stage of the input you can simply connect a coaxial cable between the two signal pins.

    WHAT????
     
    No, no heresy here... shields do nothing to reduce induced magnetic fields, they are only effective at radio frequencies, and even that can be tricky. Typical noise energy most studios is in the power line range, and the only way to reduce that is a twisted pair feeding a true differential input. So the shield and the center conductor are exposed to the same noise, and happily the same noise voltage will be induced on both. Freakish, and only recently understood, and yeah, you really have to see it to believe it.

    So... if you have a balanced (or more accurately differential) input you will benefit by connecting (correctly) to both signal pins. I am pretty sure the usual references have been posted here recently, and I am feeling lazy, so I'll just suggest reading the app notes at Jensen and Rane as a great start to understanding this stuff better.

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
    #7
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/18 11:37:51 (permalink)
    I think the combination jacks that are wired to work as either a balanced or unbalanced input contribute to mixed experiences.
     
    A well designed unbalanced input circuit isn't nearly as bad as one that is kludged in to a connector and input circuit that is designed to be optimized for a balanced signal.
     
    In other words, devices with combo jacks make it seem as if you are directly comparing the broader concepts of balanced vs unbalanced connections but in reality you are not actually comparing circuits that have been optimized for both. You are more likely comparing a circumstance that has been optimized to a circumstance that has been kludged.
     
    If unbalanced were inherently terrible, it would have been put out to pasture a long time ago.
     
    Having said that, most of my gear has balanced interconnections. I have purchased it so that I can enjoy the benefits of balanced connections. The few pieces of gear I have that were designed primarily for unbalanced interconnection seem to integrate very nicely with the studio as a whole.
     
     
    best regards,
    mike


    #8
    wst3
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1979
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
    • Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/18 14:52:04 (permalink)
    Combination jacks are not really the problem...
     
    When you use a combination jack you tie tip/pin2 to "+", ring/pin3 to "-", and sleeve/pin1 to common. You could, in theory tie the ring to common as well, but not all of the jack assemblies allow you to split out the TRS from the XLR.
     
    Anyway, if you insert a TS plug in you tie the ring and sleeve together anyway, which immediately defeats any benefit from a differential (balanced) input.
     
    Anyway, the general consensus amongst folks that would be identified as authorities on the topic of electronic noise reduction is that single-ended inputs are inherently bad when applied to professional and/or commercial applications. This does not apply to single-ended sources (outputs) - these can be made to work with differential inputs.

    But here is where it gets tricky...
     
    Not everyone understands how a balanced input works - and there are some heroically BAD implementations of balanced inputs out there. Further, the only way to truly balance a source is a transformer. Cross-coupled outputs are probably about as close as your are going to get to an electronically balanced output, and they have all sorts of problems - not the least of which is if you accidentally tie one side to ground you can burn up the output stage.

    Tascam, when it was known as Teac, was the big proponent of single-ended interconnections for studios. BUT, if you read the manual for the Model 10 console or 80-8 tape deck you'll discover that they knew EXACTLY what the trade-offs were, and what users needed to do to take advantage of the benefits. Benefits? Yes, the biggest benefit of a single-ended interconnection is that it is easier (and less expensive) to design well. The single-ended connections on the old Teac gear took everything into account, including landing the shields on the chassis, not the circuit board.

    It remains a demonstrable fact that a (well designed) balanced source feeding a (well designed) balanced input using a twisted pair with a braided or reussen shield is a measurably better technique than any other combination. The difference between electronically balanced inputs and transformer balanced inputs has become minimal, but a top quality transformer will perform slightly better.

    The next best solution is a single-ended source feeding a balanced input, again assuming both are well designed, and the cable is a twisted pair, with braided or Reussen shield. Modifying the source to be impedance balanced (which is redundant<G>) provides a measurable benefit in a noisy environment.

    Anything else is a compromise.

    That said, it might be a compromise you can live with. I have set up studios using only single-ended inputs and outputs, and I've used coaxial cable, and with a little attention to detail I've been able to get the noise floor to a reasonable level.

    It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish!!!

    BUT, if the option to use balanced (differential) inputs arises, you really do want to take advantage of it!

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
    #9
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/18 16:27:03 (permalink)
    I guess what I was trying to say is along these lines; the extra 6dB you get with the balanced connection when you use all the wires is a direct comparison to when you use the same connections with only 2 of the wires.
     
    If you had two discrete sets of connections, one that is unbalanced and one that is balanced you may find the comparison more favorable. Yes, there will probably be a a small amount of noise added to the SNR of the unbalanced send, and yes there may be a small amount of noise entering on the cable run, but you may, possibly, find a lot less additional noise than when you simply throw out half your signal by not using the extra wire on a connection that is designed to use one and then use make up gain to get to the nominal levels.
     
    Part of this idea includes the consideration that it is rare to run the device doing the sending at such a hot level that it is at the threshold of a SNR problem. If the device has a unbalanced send that was made to sound good at a comparable level as some balanced send we refer to then the differences in perceived results will be much slighter than if we simply throw half the signal away as in the examples cited in the first few posts.
     
    In general, I agree with everything you say about the benefit of balanced connections. :-) I'm just making a very small point about how the experience of observing a large difference in one circumstance does not lead to an absolute conclusion that the two technologies always provide such different results. 
     
     
     
     
     
    And now because I can't resist: :-)
     
    "Anyway, the general consensus amongst folks that would be identified as authorities on the topic of electronic noise reduction is that single-ended inputs are inherently bad when applied to professional and/or commercial applications. This does not apply to single-ended sources (outputs) - these can be made to work with differential inputs."
     
    I agree 99.9% but I can't help but think of the many times I have experienced huge SPL in commercial venues with low noise playback on a large PA system being fed by an iSomething and its unbalanced "1/8" output connection into the "tape in" on a Pacific rim mixer.
     
     
    all the best,
    mike


    #10
    wst3
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1979
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
    • Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/18 17:09:40 (permalink)
    Hi Mike,
     
    Not trying to beat the poor dead horse, but...
     
    mike_mccue
    I guess what I was trying to say is along these lines; the extra 6dB you get with the balanced connection when you use all the wires is a direct comparison to when you use the same connections with only 2 of the wires.

     
    That extra 6dB of signal is not guaranteed just because you use all three lines!!! The only way that happens is if the line is symmetrical! Balanced does not imply symmetrical, and symmetrical does not imply balanced.
     
    Case in point - some popular A/D chips have symmetrical inputs, but if you read the fine print you'll discover that the signals applied to the two input pins must be absolutely equal, except for polarity. If there is any common mode signal then the two signals will not be equal and opposite, and the S/N ratio degrades - a LOT!
     
    mike_mccueIf you had two discrete sets of connections, one that is unbalanced and one that is balanced you may find the comparison more favorable. Yes, there will probably be a a small amount of noise added to the SNR of the unbalanced send, and yes there may be a small amount of noise entering on the cable run, but you may, possibly, find a lot less additional noise than when you simply throw out half your signal by not using the extra wire on a connection that is designed to use one and then use make up gain to get to the nominal levels.

     
    Not exactly... and you are somewhat mixing metaphors - I mean conditions...
     
    Noise coming in on the shield is a specific problem, described as the "Pin 1" problem.
     
    If you have a less noise when you "throw out half your signal" that indicates a design flaw somewhere. Reducing the signal level increases the S/N ratio unless you also reduce the noise. Make-up gain will always decrease the S/N ratio. And unless the equipment is really poorly designed, connecting a single-ended source to a balanced input as a balanced signal will always result in less noise. It has to, since the noise will be common mode, and that is what a differential input does - it cancels out the common mode signal.
     
    mike_mccuePart of this idea includes the consideration that it is rare to run the device doing the sending at such a hot level that it is at the threshold of a SNR problem. If the device has a unbalanced send that was made to sound good at a comparable level as some balanced send we refer to then the differences in perceived results will be much slighter than if we simply throw half the signal away as in the examples cited in the first few posts.

     
    I think you are confusing gain staging with other issues. It does not matter what the nominal operating level of a source is... that has no real effect on S/N ratio, it is simply the nominal operating level.

    And herein lies the problem with mixing consumer, pro-sumer, and professional equipment! They have different nominal operating levels, different topologies, etc. Getting the best performance from this mix is a challenge, and that's why I prefer to avoid pro-sumer and consumer gear if I can.
     
    mike_mccueIn general, I agree with everything you say about the benefit of balanced connections. :-) I'm just making a very small point about how the experience of observing a large difference in one circumstance does not lead to an absolute conclusion that the two technologies always provide such different results. 

     
    But it will. If we assume competently designed equipment. Which is another problem - there is a lot of poorly designed equipment out there.

    mike_mccue 
    And now because I can't resist: :-)
     
    "Anyway, the general consensus amongst folks that would be identified as authorities on the topic of electronic noise reduction is that single-ended inputs are inherently bad when applied to professional and/or commercial applications. This does not apply to single-ended sources (outputs) - these can be made to work with differential inputs."
     
    I agree 99.9% but I can't help but think of the many times I have experienced huge SPL in commercial venues with low noise playback on a large PA system being fed by an iSomething and its unbalanced "1/8" output connection into the "tape in" on a Pacific rim mixer.

     
    But SPL is not a function of the level feeding the Pacific rim mixer. SPL is a function of gain staging and the power available to drive the loudspeakers and the efficiency of the loudspeakers. As long as you can drive the amplifiers to their maximum output it is gonna get stupid loud no matter the source.

    This is a very complex, and messy topic because it includes a lot of factors... and I guess I am not doing a very good job of explaining it here.

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
    #11
    Jeff Evans
    Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 5139
    • Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
    • Location: Ballarat, Australia
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/18 17:39:46 (permalink)
    I just want to share my practical experiences. As a composer, connecting synthesisers to a mixer presents the variables that have been mentioned here. Even with 7 or so in my case they have different output arrangments. But they also have different amounts of quiescent noise that exist alongside the signal.
     
    I am not referring to noise that is picked up on the line either between the synth and the mixer.  (I have never had a problem with that)  I am referring to the ambient or quiescent noise of the machine itself.  With something like the older Kurzweil K2000 that background noise is reasonably high and audible.  That output is single ended.  (Note: it is still mostly not an issue. The signal is still very loud compared to this noise and the noise will most often be masked. Noise gets heard more with sounds that fade away slowly and have long tails and start getting very quiet. With some effective downward expansion the synth can be made to be dead silent when not making any sound. Any downward expander VST will do a great job once you have printed this track in your DAW. I have a nice hardware one which kills any noise when not sounding, I patch it over that K2000 permamently. It does a lovely job of easing in the gain reduction as the signal almost disappears, Internal Reverbs will extend the tails of patches too..)
     
    On the newer model that noise is considerably less and the signal level is much higher and all on a balanced output system. (No downward expander required)  There are many reasons why that background noise is there.  So you now choose to use the output options in two ways either single ended or balanced.  I was using the single ended connection for a while and it proved fine except the background noise was just present but very low.
     
    However when you use the fully balanced interconnection between this and the mixer, the signal level jumps 6 dB but not only that any quiescent noise that was present before has now completely gone and I am now dealing with a machine that is dead silent when not making a sound.  Even with everything maxed out on the channel strip it is still dead slient.  I am amazed at how quiet they have got it. This is when using a balanced interconnection is doing something damn useful.
     
    It is better to start with a dead silent machine if you can because many processes later down the line can bring up even low level quiescent noise.  But when things are dead silent many effects processes later won't be bringing up any noise because it not there. Saves time later cleaning up noisy tracks in your mix or tracks that are not sounding but still have low levels of noise present.
     
    Some synths have only a single ended output and work perfectly with an unbalanced lead to a line input that is unbalanced.  This can work as well as any balanced system.  With some instruments the output is still very high + 4 to +8 dBu on average with a loud preset selected and when the sound comes to rest and you are just hearing the output quiescent noise then with some devices it is amazingly low and the machine sounds perfectly silent even with the channel fader up high.  Obviously those manufacturers had done a mightly fine job on their single ended output design.  I suspect some may have a form of downward expansion on the very output stage to create a form of noise reduction to eliminate any noise that has come from earlier stages. It works great because then you will never hear the noise of the machine itself, the output signal is so loud compared to it and masks any noise very effectively.
     
    I did find out something else though. Be careful taking a balanced output from a synth on a TRS connector and using an XLR male plug on the other end to connect direct to a mic input. No issue from an audio perspective but if you apply phantom power for any reason you are now sending +48V to the outputs of your precious synth. I checked with Kurzweil on this and they said in no uncertain terms it would have blown the output stage. The Samson mixer I use has a balanced line input next door to the XLR input which feeds the same Mic pre anyway but it is DC isolated and safe. All balanced mixer line inputs will be the same.
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2014/04/19 20:34:55

    Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface 
     
    Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
    #12
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/18 17:45:36 (permalink)
    Hi Bill,
     
    It seems like keeping noise to a minimum is definitely factored by effective gain staging. So my general response to your post is that I am referring to gain staging but I don't think I'm that confused. :-)
     
    "Not exactly... and you are somewhat mixing metaphors - I mean conditions..."
     
    Yes, I am purposely mixing conditions. Two best case scenarios, one for balanced and unbalanced gear, and yes that definitely touches upon the idea of gain staging... gain staging as managed not only by the operator but also by the equipment designer.
     
     
    "If you have a less noise when you "throw out half your signal"..."
     
    I don't think I made this implication. Maybe it's a fair inference from something I said and I have not recognized it yet?
     
    You do have me thinking though... is the system noise from any previous stage "common" or random? I have always thought of common mode rejection at an input as applying to noise that enters the cabling with the twisted pairs and not the noise emanating from the device sending the signal.
     
    I think I may be confused on this point, but it seems as if you may be suggesting that CMMR can reduce system noise from a previous device... ???
     
     
     
    I think your point about ineffective CMMR on some designs is very interesting but I suspect we are both straying far from the OPs interest. :-)
     
    Finally,
     
    "That extra 6dB of signal is not guaranteed just because you use all three lines!!! The only way that happens is if the line is symmetrical! Balanced does not imply symmetrical, and symmetrical does not imply balanced."
     
    Yes! We might as well elaborate and point out that a good way to visualize a symmetrical waveform is to think of a sine wave test tone. In other words, musical content is unlikely to be symmetrical and so when I used the figure 6dB, for the sake of discussion, I was generalizing in a way that does not help to further an understanding of the points being made about balanced connections.
     
    all the best,
    mike


    #13
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/19 08:56:57 (permalink)
    Woke up this morning... :-)
     
    Or perhaps, when you mention the "term" symmetrical you are referring to the send devices capability to send a signal along the two lines so that they exactly reflect each other as polar opposites? In other words, the device may deviate in level, system noise, or distortion etc. and so when two signal arrive at the input the recombination does not add up to an exact doubling of level?
     
    ... always happy to learn! :-) Sometimes I act too big for my britches. :-)


    #14
    Rimshot
    Max Output Level: -29 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4625
    • Joined: 2010/12/09 12:51:08
    • Location: California
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/04/19 10:08:54 (permalink)
    I am learning so much from you guys on this issue.  I am dumbfounded as to how much punch and clean volume I now have without ANY detectable noise!  I brought my near field monitors in closer to me and at normal listening level they are dead silent when I hit stop.
     
    Learning why this is so is important too but proof is in the pudding.
     
    Mike - I am glad you woke up this morning!  

    Rimshot 

    Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 
    , OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
    #15
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/05/03 14:26:45 (permalink)
    Bill, if you are out there... I've been waiting (and hoping) to learn my lesson... and find out what I said wrong about symmetry in the past few posts.
     
    Thanks!
     
    :-)


    #16
    wst3
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1979
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
    • Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/05/03 16:23:06 (permalink)
    hmmm... not sure to what you are referring... seems like you get it.
    Signal Symmetry refers to a condition where the signal on two conductors is equal but opposite in polarity. If it were a simple sine wave then the positive line would reach it's maximum at time t, and at that same time t the negative line would reach it's minimum.
     
    When you take the difference you would twice the maximum excursion of either one of the lines - so if the sine wave was swinging from -1V to +1V on the "+" side, and +1V to -1V on the "-" side then the output of the difference stage would be 2V, which is 6dB greater than 1V.
     
    At the same time, the noise that is induced into the system - or cable - will be equal, and of the same polarity on both sides of the line, so when we take the difference we'll end up with no noise voltage. That, of course, assumes a perfect system, which doesn't exist, but there will be a significant rejection of noise induced into the system when we do this. HOWEVER, and this is important, a differential stage works best when it is balanced.
     
    Signal balance actually refers to impedance balance. The impedance from each source pin to ground must be very nearly equal. The impedance from each input pin to ground must be very nearly equal. And the impedance of each path must be very nearly equal, since the combination of a source impedance, line impedance, and input impedance is a series circuit.

    Some input stages are remarkably tolerant of an impedance mis-match, think transformers. Others introduce an impedance mis-match - thing the single op-amp topology. Many really bright folks have spent considerably brain power figuring out tricks to make the inverting and non-inverting inputs of an op-amp 'look' the same to a signal. Some of those tricks work, some don't.

    A single-ended source can drive a differential input - it won't have signal symmetry, and it may or may not be balanced, or rather the degree of balance may be compromised. At which point the ability of the input stage to tolerate imbalance becomes the key.

    Last dead horse to beat - shielding vs twisted pairs... shielding can prevent RF energy from reaching the signal conductors. It can do nothing to prevent magnetic energy from reaching the pairs and inducing noise currents. If the shield is grounded at both ends then current can flow, and if the shield is improperly terminated at the input it can introduce noise.
     
    This was the reason folks started connecting the shield at only one end (telescoping shields). However, a shield - or any conductor - that is grounded at only one end is an antenna. You have to pick your poison some times.
     
    Twisting the signal pair helps to reject magnetic fields. If the twist rate is uniform then each conductor is exposed to the same magnetic field, which provides some additional rejection. And then of course there is the balanced, differential input stage to finish the job.

    So isn't that basically what you said - only i used more words<G>???

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
    #17
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/05/03 18:32:10 (permalink)
    Thanks for taking the time Bill!
     
    The idea I mentioned about the sine wave seemed, in retrospect, to misapply to the point of seeming like a silly outburst, and then I felt like I was grasping to offer a pertinent explanation.
     
    I appreciate the reminders to stay on point. :-)


    #18
    wst3
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1979
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
    • Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/05/03 18:54:15 (permalink)
    The sine wave example is exactly on point, since it is by far the easiest way to visualize the physical symmetry.
     
    When I taught this stuff that was one of the experiments we did in lab. Of course the poor students eventually had to use music, and it was always fun to watch them try to figure out how to prove the same thing was happening. I was a mean teacher!!
     
    It sticks in my mind that you like to build things Mike - if you are still so inclined you really owe it to yourself to play with the InGenius(tm) chips from THAT Corp. They behave a LOT like a transformer, well, except for isolation<G>!
     

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
    #19
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: Balanced xlr or TRS cables make a huge difference! 2014/05/03 18:57:50 (permalink)
    Hi Bill, Thanks for the info about the InGenius chip, I'll make a point of reading up about it and then see where that takes me. :-)


    #20
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1