Loudness, clipping and Class A audio

Mac or PC makes no difference whatsoever. Both machines just do calculations and even use mostly the same components, like Intel processors. Pro Tools or Logic have no inherent audio qualities that make them better than Sonar, and there are quality audio interfaces for Mac and PC.
 
What makes a HUGE difference is mixing and mastering. As just one example, I use quite a bit of Concrete Limiter on acoustic drums. It tames the peaks and brings up the room sound. I also add some EQ in the upper mids so the percussive hits have more "snap."
 
On bass, a lot of times I'll add a little bit of saturation. It makes the bass "pop" more and stand out better in a mix.
 
By the time you've applied a variety of techniques to all the tracks in a mix, you'll have more punch, more clarity, and assuming you don't go overboard, a better audio experience. Then get a good mastering engineer, and it will improve another 20%.
 
I tried to listen to your music but the browser on this particular laptop doesn't support Spotify. I'll try later.
 
 

Thank you for your detailed replies. Here is a song that I made in 2008. I did everything I could to it then, and left it to ripe for a while. Then I returned to it in 2014 with all experience I gained over time, and invested 2 weeks in listening it over and over and over and trying to alter every detail to make it better. So I feel- there is NOTHING I personally can do with it to make it louder. Also it was mastered on Ozone at +1. It was recorded with Phonic Helix FW mixer- not very high class audio- I think my Presonus today can do better job. This song was recorded at 16/44.1. Not trying to get you to listen my music, just need to see what I am doing wrong.
https://soundcloud.com/vl...clean_astral_2014m-wav
 
Keyz, you saying almost exactly the same thing my partner is saying, but I am not understanding a half of what you saying. First of all- I just bought Yamaha SH8 monitors 2 days ago. For the last 20 years I have been using headphones to mix. How do I know what volume I am at? Well- I am comparing it to the other tracks. I hear many much weaker tracks that are much louder. I can bet those kids have no idea what you talking about and not doing all those great things you suggested, and their mixes sound better than my. Ok- should I say- sound louder? If a person does not know how to write a song or make arrangement, I doubt they know that well how to mix and use high pass filters, but their mixes sound louder and clearer.

Placing the Meter Taps on individual tracks in Sonar and viewing them individually inside Ozone. Use the EQ to reduce overlapping frequencies or panning the instruments to either side.

I doubt it would be practical to place meters on individual tracks (not know how to do it). This song has over 70 tracks. I do not know what frequencies overlapping. If I have 3 synths sounds playing at the same time in the same range- how would EQ make them not overlap? All 3 have exactly the same frequencies, just different patterns. But they all in the same middle range. I do not like to Pan instruments. Everything I use is panned Center. May be I should reconsider this, but when I hear something to the left or to the right, I feel like I am about to loose a balance and fall off the chair. I hate panning to either side. In fact- this song has accidental pan at the beginning where drums first start on the synth sound, and it drives me crazy, but I could not fix it.
 
Ok, I do not use Hi pass filters, I use EQ- the one on the channel in Sonar. I get rid of everything under 50 Mhz. Is it how I supposed to do it? Now- what do I do with highs? When I used Ozone setting, it added lots of highs- it was not me- it is Ozone preset. I did not like it but it was best preset for the song. Electronic music has lots of shhhh and sssss- it would be dull without highs. So what you say, I should do?
 
I put Compressor almost on every individual track. I dont know why- supposedly to get rid of picks and make it punchy? I use that old compressor that comes with Sonar from older versions- it stored under Direct X. It has Multiband and regular compressor. I use presets for drums and synth or vocals... I have Native Instruments Complete, which has many compressors, but I do not hear much change- it gets louder and starts clipping, I turn it does and a track sounds the same, so I can not tell that it obviously became more punchy.
 
My drums. If I make them any louder, they would overpower the synths. I dont like them loud, but in commercial production, it is not loud- it just stands out.
Here is A State Of Trance link. You need to have Spotify installed, and I strongly recommend to use it- it has everything- for free and for $10 a months- I have more music than I can listen now. A State Of Trance Episode 658  Listen closer to a middle of the list.  
 
 
This must be combination of 16 bit and my old Phonic Helix interface that is gone now- now I use Presounus Studiolive. Again- while what I hear while I am making song sounds very clear, the commercial trance music sounds much much better than what I hear right from Sonar via my $200 headphones.
 
So when you talking about Monitor Calibration- which monitors you talking about? My headphones or my new Yamaha SH8? (I actually did not even hear it playing yet- only hooked them up).
 

Ozone Advanced. With Ozone Advanced, there is a Meter Bridge. Using the Meter Bridge, just keep your average levels at 0, while they peak (into the reds) is more or less the correct loudness for the K-12 system. K-12 means that you will have 12dB headroom to play with.

I have Ozone Advanced for now. What you mean by average? You mean- I can let pics go over 0 db long as average is still under 0 db? Is there a setting to monitor by average? I thought we looking at picks.
 
There was a preset in Ozone- something Breakwall limiter. I did not like it. But I do use one of the Ozone mastering presets, as I do not hear well enough to make my own settings. I believe it has EQ and compression. As I said- I set it to run at +1, and it still not anywhere close to how loud everyone has it.
 

Oh, and two more things:
 
1. You might want to mix the voice down 1 or 2dB, or limit (not compress) it more.
2. I kept listening  I think there are techniques you could use while mixing that would really benefit your music. Remember, the Mute button for tracks is your friend...dropping things out, then having everything come crashing back in can be very dramatic...
 
 

vladasyn
Now if you say, it is original and you wrote this song... As a health professional that I am... I should not say anything as this is not a medical forum. lol.

 
It makes sense if you watch all the way to the end, where it says "This song is dedicated to the veterans who survived a war, but not the return to society." I received many comments from veteran's groups when it was first posted thanking me for understanding and making people more aware of this problem. But this isn't a political forum, either, so we'll leave it at that.
 
Besides, I recommended you  listen to "Magic Spell"...that's more appropriate to the kind of music you do. "So Tell Me Why I Shouldn't" is more like rock mastering. But thanks for listening

vladasyn
Anderton, thank you for your reply. I liked the song "So Tell Me Why I Shouldn't". First part of the song kind of dominates on the right.  

I believe that if you're going to do stereo, it can be used for a dramatic effect, not just placement. So yes, the electronics tend to be placed toward the right at first. When the distorted guitar and strings come in more on the left later on, I think they make more of an impression as well as provide some "release" for the "tension."
 
Personally, I actually like centered sound, as that's what live performance sounds like. But in an electronic medium, non-traditional placement has its uses if you're trying to create a specific emotional response.
 
I'm not saying this is right, wrong" or even desirable. However, my years of being a "teenage rock star" are many decades behind me , and I've been doing music for a long time...so I'm interested in trying different approaches. Several people have commented that the only things my songs have in common is they're posted by the same person to YouTube

vladasyn
Thank you for your detailed replies. Here is a song that I made in 2008. I did everything I could to it then, and left it to ripe for a while. Then I returned to it in 2014 with all experience I gained over time, and invested 2 weeks in listening it over and over and over and trying to alter every detail to make it better. So I feel- there is NOTHING I personally can do with it to make it louder. Also it was mastered on Ozone at +1. It was recorded with Phonic Helix FW mixer- not very high class audio- I think my Presonus today can do better job. This song was recorded at 16/44.1. Not trying to get you to listen my music, just need to see what I am doing wrong.
https://soundcloud.com/vl...clean_astral_2014m-wav
 

Thank you for the opportunity to listen to your song. I have PM you on this. 
 

vladasyn
Keyz, you saying almost exactly the same thing my partner is saying, but I am not understanding a half of what you saying....
 
I doubt it would be practical to place meters on individual tracks (not know how to do it). This song has over 70 tracks. I do not know what frequencies overlapping....
 
Everything I use is panned Center. May be I should reconsider this, but when I hear something to the left or to the right, I feel like I am about to loose a balance and fall off the chair. I hate panning to either side....
 

Oooopss.... i apologise to have confused the issue further. 
 
You dont have to place the Meter Taps on each and every track. Just on the tracks you suspect there is overlap. Then opening up Ozone's Spectrogram and select the specific colours, you will be able to see which tracks are clouding each other. - The other alternative, as Anderton mentioned, is to use the MUTE button. 
 
As for panning, it is also not necessary to pan the track hard left or right. With Sonar, you may wish to try 40L or 40R for starters.
 

vladasyn
Ok, I do not use Hi pass filters, I use EQ- the one on the channel in Sonar. I get rid of everything under 50 Mhz. Is it how I supposed to do it? Now- what do I do with highs...
 
My drums. If I make them any louder, they would overpower the synths. I dont like them loud, but in commercial production, it is not loud- it just stands out.
 

Hmmm.... let's try an experiment. 

Create an 8 bar loop with just some drums and bass. Just remember to keep all the tracks separate. You should end up with 4 MIDI tracks and 4 Audio tracks.

Start with a Kick, Snare and Hi Hat; using MIDI and your favourite drum machine. Once done, create a simple bass line, again with MIDI and your favourite bass instrument. 

Once done, do a simple mix just using faders - NO eq, NO compressor, No effects. Balance the way you want and listen. 
 
NOTE: the following is just a example and some set values may even be wrong.

Now using the ProChannel EQ only, - No fader movements, No other effects...

1. Kick - set hi-pass to 60Hz, low-pass 900Hz
2. Snare - set hi-pass to 150Hz, low-pass 5000Hz
3. Hi Hat - set hi-pass to 400Hz, low-pass 11000Hz
4. Bass - set hi-pass to 90Hz, boost +1.5db on 120Hz with high Q, low-pass 2500Hz

Listen again. This time your bass and kick should stand out or perhaps sound "louder" while the rest remain just as clear - all without touching the faders. This should get you the very basic concepts of mixing. 
 

vladasyn
So when you talking about Monitor Calibration- which monitors you talking about? My headphones or my new Yamaha SH8? (I actually did not even hear it playing yet- only hooked them up).
 

Ooooppss.... once again i apologie for the confussion. Lets not worry about that for now. Monitor and room calibration is a whole other beast. The Yams HS8 are great monitors. Coincidentally i am using them too.
 

vladasyn
I have Ozone Advanced for now. What you mean by average? You mean- I can let pics go over 0 db long as average is still under 0 db? Is there a setting to monitor by average? I thought we looking at picks.
 

 
The K-System meters (use K-12) in Ozone allow you to view the levels with 12db headroom. Meaning to say that when you mix the average should be around the 0 mark. Some levels will jump above the 0 mark into the + or red range. 
 
Now during your mastering stage, if you so choose to squeeze the mix up, you will have 12db space to do so. 
 
Using Ozone's Maximizer, set your Margin to -1.0 and then increase Threshold. You will notice the levels on the K-12 meters moving up to the REDs and staying there. As they move the levels will get louder and louder. The trade off here is you will be killing off all the dynamic range. 
 
NOTE: Do give this a try and see if it works out for you. Just be very careful not to damage your monitors (HS8) or headphones with too loud volumes. 

hope this helps... cheers!!!
 

mettelus
...Complexity and clarity are often competing. Focus can only be given to one thing at a time usually, so how focus is shifted is important to keep the listener following the song...

Just wanted to say, excellent post, mettelus.  One of the best I've read here in a while.

It is not the sonic complexity so much as the frequency competition that can be the issue.
 
Notching out a few key frequencies from a particular synth or guitar part may instantly make the guitar sound better simply because it is no longer buried by the particular frequencies that you just notched out, as an example.
 
I think the suggestion about muting was to point you toward experimenting with particular sections of projects, by just sort of identifying which layers are needed for 'defining' that particular section, for purposes of coming up with some pieces that could be done more sparsly.
 
The bottom line is that if 10 keyboard parts are playing the same frequency range as where the vocal line is, then the vocals AND the keyboard parts will all be fighting to be heard clearly.  The 'fix' is to identify the most important frequencies for any given point in the project, and to either remove parts or remove frequencies as needed to give the vocals the space to be heard clearly and separately from whatever else is going on at that moment.
 
If you listen to most successful pop tunes, even though it is a different style, you will notice that the instruments leave space for each other's parts.  When the singer is singing, there is not a lead guitar competing for your focus at the same time.  Everything gets its own 'space', and becomes more prominent only for the parts where they are MEANT to be more prominent.
 
Bob Bone
 
 
 
 
 

There are as many ways to approach music as there are musicians. Symphonic music has plenty of parts playing simultaneously, but they coordinate together to create a single, complex, layered sound, like a string or brass section. Or you have Bach, who has many complex parts going on simultaneously; but he pulled it off because of the jigaw puzzle way in which the harmonies fit together. All the parts retained their own identity in service of a larger whole.
 
I recently wrote an article for the Cakewalk Blog called "Ten Nasty Mixing Mistakes." Tip number 3 is:
 
3. Falling in love with a part because it’s cool
The question you really need to ask isn’t whether a part is cool, but whether it contributes to the song. Removing unneeded parts emphasizes the parts that are left—there’s a reason why sometimes the most compelling music is a solo piano, or a singer with a guitar. Exercise the mixer’s Mute button often and ask yourself “is this part (or section of this part) really necessary?” If the answer isn’t a resounding “yes,” nuke it—the remaining parts will thank you. (Note: Muting parts in certain strategic places can also add drama. Again, the mute button is your friend.)
 
This doesn't mean you can't get lots of parts to work together, but it requires thinking in a more symphonic or Bach-like direction; the former regarding sonic complexity, the latter regarding melodic complexity.
 
But really, the main emphasis in the advice given here hasn't been about changing the arrangement as much as changing the EQ on elements of the arrangement so that the parts don't compete sonically, but rather, complement each other. By complementing each other, it's possible to increase the apparent level of the parts so they have more prominence.
 

mettelus
I believe it was George Lynch who made a comment that getting carried away with speed runs loses the listener because it is "too many notes." He was a good person to say such a thing, since it carries more weight, but speed [can lose] "expression."

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I happened to catch a video of George Lynch at NAMM 2015 and it reminded me that I made this post. It is sort of ironic that he made the comment of "too many notes" being distracting to the listener since 64th notes are common for him... but he is one of many players who prove that speed and expression can co-exist.
 
Slight rig issue at the beginning of this song (never let others touch your rig when performing!) -
http://youtu.be/Mw4uZ_R18w8?t=4m36s

PS- the next time someone tells you that Macs have some magical superior audio capabilies, ask them to show you some measurable proof. My friends and I created identical pro tools mixes on mac and pc and exported with exact same settings using exact same interface and got the exact same result. The moment Macs started using intel processors, you would think some of the Mac myths would disapear. The one major advantage that Mac holds is the overall consticency of experience due to hardware and software and OS (and even some software like Logic) coming from same company.  I concede this can make for a better experience across varying user levels, but narrows among power users. The person with the custom music computer and not using it to watch sloth porn and organize quiche recipes is likely to have as smooth of an experience as a Mac user. I can honestly say my computers don't give me anymore issues than the Mac I use in the studio.