Midi question

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dougalex
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2014/04/22 16:08:07 (permalink)

Midi question

Using Sonar as live host 
 
I cannot find a midi command that "changes the midi channel of a midi controller device".
 
Could it be true that there is no midi command that "changes the midi channel of a midi controller device"?
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    daveny5
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/22 16:18:07 (permalink)
    What are you trying to do?

    Dave
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    dougalex
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/22 16:28:34 (permalink)
    I play VST instruments live using Sonar as the host.
     
    Each song is a Sonar project
    Each track is a different VST (with my preferred FX in the FX bin)
    Each track is assigned a different midi channel input
     
    Therefore to change sounds (including FX chain), I simply change the midi channel on my keyboard controllers.
     
    I want to use a midi footswitch to change the midi channel on the keyboard so I do not take my hands off of the keyboards.
     
    That requires having a way via midi to "change the midi channel of a midi controller device".
     
    As far as I know, midi does not include this capability. (Astonishing!)
    post edited by dougalex - 2014/04/22 16:34:50
    #3
    brundlefly
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/22 17:14:47 (permalink)
    It's not too surprising to me that no such message is defined. A controller is by definition supposed to be "in control", and not subject to having its control settings altered by another MIDI source, notwithstanding the Local OFF message and possibly a few other exceptions that don't occur to me right at the moment. That said, I imagine some manufacturers might have implemented remote output channel changing as a System Exclusive message. You should check your controller's implementation chart.
     
     

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    #4
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/22 17:28:42 (permalink)
    Well, for midi tracks in Sonar, just under the FX bin, is a parameter to set the midi channel that that track's midi data will transmit on.  It is called MIDI Output Channel.
     
    I use this parameter to control which loaded instrument is playing, when I use a multi-timbral synth like Kontakt.  If a loaded multi-rack has 4 instruments loaded, each will respond to a different midi channel - (1-4 by default), so I set the midi output channel appropriately for each instrument's corresponding midi track.
     
    Using the above approach, all of the midi INPUTS for the midi tracks are set to Omni.  The end result is that I don't have to care what channel my midi controller is set to, as Omni will take care of receiving the data, and that track will transmit on the midi output channel to the correct loaded instrument in Kontakt.
     
    If you want to change the midi channel of your midi controller, you should find a Function command somewhere within the midi controller's parameters, and you can set that to whatever you would like.
     
    I hope that gave you some assistance.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
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    #5
    slartabartfast
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/22 18:07:51 (permalink)
    So if I understand you correctly, you want to be able to send a message from an outboard controller (foot switch) to your keyboard controller so that your keyboard will broadcast all input on a different channel than it is currently using. That is apparently what you are doing now by somehow (you do not say how) changing the channel of your keyboard controller. That would depend on how the keyboard is set up, and as Brundefly says might be possible using MIDI if there is a sysex code for that built into the keyboard.
     
    You might be able to get a similar result by sending mute messages to all but the desired single track that you want to hear using Sonar's remote control features.
    see pp 956ff. in the SONAR_X3_Reference_Guide.pdf
    #6
    daveny5
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/22 18:16:20 (permalink)
    Take a look at the Behringer FCB1010 MIDI Foot Controller. I think what you need to do is set up some presets that tell the footpedal to send a program change on a specific channel so that the softsynth responding to that channel will change to the program in the preset. There may be other ways to do that also. 

    Dave
    Computer: Intel i7, ASROCK H170M, 16GB/5TB+, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit, Sonar Platinum, TASCAM US-16x08, Cakewalk UM-3G MIDI I/F
    Instruments: SL-880 Keyboard controller, Korg 05R/W, Korg N1R, KORG Wavestation EX
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    dougalex
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/22 23:06:00 (permalink)
    slartabartfast
    So if I understand you correctly, you want to be able to send a message from an outboard controller (foot switch) to your keyboard controller so that your keyboard will broadcast all input on a different channel than it is currently using. That is apparently what you are doing now by somehow (you do not say how) changing the channel of your keyboard controller. That would depend on how the keyboard is set up, and as Brundefly says might be possible using MIDI if there is a sysex code for that built into the keyboard.
     
    You might be able to get a similar result by sending mute messages to all but the desired single track that you want to hear using Sonar's remote control features.
    see pp 956ff. in the SONAR_X3_Reference_Guide.pdf



    I currently press the "+" or "-" buttons on the Oxygen 61 to change the channel. The problem  is that I have to take my hand off the keyboard to do that.
    My ultimate goal is to change channels by a footswitch.
     
    Instead of directly changing the "channel", I was hopeful that I could at least change the "Preset" on the Oxygen 61 (via midi), which would solve my problem because the "midi Channel" can be saved with the "Preset". But so far, the Oxygen has not responded to my Program Change messages. I also tried cc 145 (as M-Audio support suggested), but that also does nothing to the Oxygen.
     
    I specifically asked M-Audio tech support about SysEx, or any way to change the channel remotely. They just said, as I mentioned above, "try cc 145". But I think they were guessing. I could not get that to work.
    #8
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/23 01:04:46 (permalink)
    I am a keyboard player, and I purposefully bought a Behringer FCB 1010 MIDI foot pedal controller, so I could make preset changes to my 2 midi controllers and another one that the guitar player uses for some songs, (while I play guitar).
     
    It worked well, plus I used it for guitar presets for some songs that I played guitar on.  (controlling Guitar Rig presets and keyboard presets.
     
    I did NOT use Sonar for the above - as this was all done for live performance, and I used a program called Forte, from Brainspawn.
     
    Nonetheless, the above would have worked with Sonar, it's just that Forte is more geared for layering sounds and switching presets really efficiently, and Sonar is more geared to recording.
     
    I HAVE used it with Sonar, just found Forte more to my liking for live work.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
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    dougalex
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/23 03:23:22 (permalink)
    robert_e_bone
    I am a keyboard player, and I purposefully bought a Behringer FCB 1010 MIDI foot pedal controller, so I could make preset changes to my 2 midi controllers and another one that the guitar player uses for some songs, (while I play guitar).
     
    It worked well, plus I used it for guitar presets for some songs that I played guitar on.  (controlling Guitar Rig presets and keyboard presets.
     
    I did NOT use Sonar for the above - as this was all done for live performance, and I used a program called Forte, from Brainspawn.
     
    Nonetheless, the above would have worked with Sonar, it's just that Forte is more geared for layering sounds and switching presets really efficiently, and Sonar is more geared to recording.
     
    I HAVE used it with Sonar, just found Forte more to my liking for live work.
    Bob Bone



    I have Behringer FCB1010 and want to use it, but I use tracks with effect chains in Sonar and that is why I use Midi Channel to change sounds (as opposed to program change). When I change the midi channel on one of my keyboards, it then plays a different track in Sonar (completely different VST and different FX bin).
     
    Program change won't work, unless, like you, I change everything over to Brainspawn Forte . Thanks for letting me know your positive experience with Brainspawn Forte.That may be the wise choice in the future. I am heavily invested in whole setup in Sonar right now.
    #10
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/23 09:42:53 (permalink)
    www.brainspawn.com
     
    They have a free trial.
     
    Don't get me wrong - I spend literally on average 12+ hours a day working with Sonar, and I champion its use - I wouldn't EVER willingly part with it.
     
    For live work - Forte is a great choice, but if you wanted to mix live work with backing tracks and that sort of thing, then Sonar would be more usable.
     
    I hope you find one or more ways to achieve your goals, 
     
    Bob Bone
     
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
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    b rock
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/23 11:07:28 (permalink)
    My first thought here was the TenCrazy MFX Channel Switch.  But I see that it's one of his MFX plugins that haven't been updated to 64-bit yet.  It may be worth a shot to contact Markleford directly.
     
    Personally, I take great care with switching MIDI Channels, especially in a live setting.  Try to avoid "orphaned" controller or Note On/Note Off pairs at all costs.
    #12
    dougalex
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/23 12:07:46 (permalink)
    The other side issue is that I run two instances of Sonar, X3 32bit for "live VST host", and X2 64bit for simultaneous "multitrack recording" of whole band during live performance. The two Sonars SHARE THE SAME AUDIO INTERFACE (Behringer X32 Rack) simultaneously.
     
    I would hope I can do the same with Forte as "live VST host" and it will be happy sharing the audio interface with the "recording Sonar".
    #13
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/23 14:36:45 (permalink)
    Nope - if you are using ASIO drivers, then Sonar and Forte will NOT play happily together.
     
    The only way that would work is to use WDM drivers, and I believe that would be a giant train wreck.
     
    Why in the world would you be trying to run two instances of Sonar at the same time?
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
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    #14
    dougalex
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/23 18:11:24 (permalink)
    robert_e_bone
    Why in the world would you be trying to run two instances of Sonar at the same time?

     
    Actually I run three instances, as Sonar X1 is used as yet another "live VST player" for the controllers I do not want to change sounds during the performance. That way I do not to keep adding those static controllers/VST's to every song in the "Sonar X3 that loads a new project for every song".
     
    So far so good
    The three instances can even can send output to the same channels of the audio interface and it just sums together.
     
    The X32 Digital Mixer is a 32in/32out audio interface, so I am simply exploiting all the channels. And it works.
     
    With one computer and one mixer (the Behringer X32 Rack with audio interface card) I get 5 major functions:
    1] Front of house mix  (wireless FOH mixing on Android/Ipad)
    2] Stereo IEM Monitor mixes  (performers self mix IEM on Android/Ipad)
    3] Live mulitrack recorder (Sonar X2 64bit)
    4] Don't need snake - (because, again, wireless FOH mixing on Android/Ipad)
    5] And of course mixer's audio interface take care of the keyboard rig (hosted by Sonar X3 32bit AND Sonar X1 32bit simultaneously)
     
    Yes might "bite me in the ass" someday, but I like to live dangerously! Its just a newly "revived" band:
    http://youtu.be/zG75nRY1Bis
     
     
    #15
    Cactus Music
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/23 19:04:44 (permalink)
    I think the OP's issue is the controller does not respond to changing it's output channel. It just might work if you purchase the right controller. I'll look later if My Roland does this trick, I think it will.

    Johnny V  
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    Mystic38
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    Re: Midi question 2014/04/24 08:39:22 (permalink)
    Cantabile is another option for live performance.

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    #17
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