All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy

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jkoseattle
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2014/04/23 01:14:33 (permalink)

All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy

I opened a project I built in 8.5 a few years back which has a full orchestra, all EastWest synth instruments, about 20 in all. I had no problem with it back then. I opened it in X3e and now I get notes sticking, phantom notes playing, essentially chaos. I can hear the real piece playing there, but a whole mess of other wrong stuff is going on as well. Of course, this didn't happen back in the 8.5 version because I finished that project without troubles.
 
So, I decided there must be some artifacts that were in the tracks from 8.5 that are being interpreted wrong in X3. Or else my old project had become somehow corrupted. So I created a brand new X3 project and copy-pasted each track's clips one by one into tracks in the new project. I turned on all the EastWest synths... and the same thing happened! 
 
It sounds like there are random dropouts on instruments, but also random drop INS as well, where notes just play seemingly randomly.
 
Any ideas what's going on?
#1

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    Shambler
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/23 03:02:49 (permalink)

    SONAR Platypus on Win10 64bit.
    Studio One Pro / Cubase Pro 9.5...just in case.
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    #2
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/23 10:50:56 (permalink)
    Hi - try going to Edit>Preferences>MIDI>Playback and Recording, and adjust the Prepare Using ____ millisecond Buffers parameter from its default of 250 ms, up to 500 milliseconds.
     
    If you are still having notes dropped and such, try bumping that up to 750 milliseconds.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #3
    LpMike75
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/23 12:11:32 (permalink)
    make sure you have the latest Play updates


    - Mike
    Sonar Platinum - M-Audio Profire 2626 , Pro Tools 11 HD Omni - PC I7 6850K - 64 G RAM - GeForce GTX 970
    http://www.soundcloud.com/michael-lizotte 
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    HTTP://WWW.Facebook.com/HomeRecordingWizard
    Http://www.mjlmusic.com 
    #4
    jkoseattle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/23 22:48:04 (permalink)
    Changed to 500 milliseconds, bad, then 750 milliseconds, still bad. Installed the latest PLAY update (4.0.x to 4.1.x), rebooted machine, still bad. Though at least now rather than complete chaos, at least all I'm hearing is a ton of dropouts. As in, every note, every instrument, plays about an eighth note then gives up.
     
    If I try to play the piece a few times, it starts to behave better each time, though eventually it reverts to its bad behavior after 20-30 seconds in each case. I remember it used to do this long ago, but I must have fixed it once along the way because I haven't encountered it in a couple years, since well before I upgraded to X3.
    #5
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/24 06:10:19 (permalink)
    Please list the following info:
     
    Audio interface: Sample Rate, ASIO Buffer Size
     
    Sonar: Sample Rate, Driver Mode, Total Roundtrip Latency, Record Bit-Depth
     
    Also, what effects are loaded into this project?
     
    Thanks, 
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #6
    twaddle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/24 06:24:53 (permalink)
    Is this all happening on the same machine that you had 8.5 installed on or is it a new machine ?
    If it's the same on do you still have 8.5 installed ? I t might be useful to reinstall it as it can quite hapilly
    coexist with X3. Just so you can check that it runs okay in 8.5 and compare all your settings.
     
     
    Steve

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    #7
    jkoseattle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/24 10:16:22 (permalink)
    robert_e_bone
    Please list the following info:
     
    Audio interface: Sample Rate, ASIO Buffer Size
     
    Sonar: Sample Rate, Driver Mode, Total Roundtrip Latency, Record Bit-Depth
     
    Also, what effects are loaded into this project?
     
    Thanks, 
     
    Bob Bone
     




    AUDIO:
    Sample Rate: 44100
    ASIO Buffer Size: 1024
     
    SONAR:
    Sample Rate: 44100
    Driver Mode: ASIO
    Total Roundtrip Latency: ?? Don't know where to find that
    Record Bit Depth: 16
     
    The Master bus has an instance of Voxengo SPAN and Sonitus EQ, no other effects
    Project contains 23 EastWest Symphonic Gold instruments, no audio tracks
     
    Other noticed behaviors: When mouse hovering over track folders, I'm seeing strange video renderings of the folder summary clips, whether the folder summary thing is open or not. That's a video problem not related to playback, but I've never seen it before. 
    #8
    jkoseattle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/24 10:17:38 (permalink)
    twaddle
    Is this all happening on the same machine that you had 8.5 installed on or is it a new machine ?
    If it's the same on do you still have 8.5 installed ? I t might be useful to reinstall it as it can quite hapilly
    coexist with X3. Just so you can check that it runs okay in 8.5 and compare all your settings.
     
     
    Steve


    8.5 is uninstalled, and I gave it to someone. I can get it back, but would rather not go to all that if not necessary.
    #9
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/24 11:40:43 (permalink)
    Uh - FYI, you are actually not allowed to transfer a product license to another person, per the licensing terms.
     
    1.  If the settings you listed are used when you are doing recording, then your ASIO Buffer Size is WAY too high.  The ASIO Buffer Size for recording should be set somewhere around 128, as a reasonable balance.  (you can adjust it, but if it is too high or too low, you can experience dropouts and such - 128 is a good starting point).  
     
    Please note that I mention 'during recording' for the setting recommendation of 128, because your latency needs to be low enough to allow tracking (recording) without any 'lag' between when you play a note and when you hear it back.  
     
    When you are all finished and move on to mixing and mastering, your ASIO Buffer Size will need to be set much higher (perhaps to that 1024 value), so that mixing/master plugins can be used.  They require a much larger buffer to do things like 'look-ahead' processing, where they scan ahead of what is playing, in order to apply their particular effects.  This holds true for effects such as Perfect Space, LP-64 EQ, and Boost 11.
     
    2.  The Sonar-reported Total Roundtrip Latency is displayed in Edit>Preferences>AUdio>Driver Settings, along with some input and output latency values.  You want to try to get things adjusted to where your Total Roundtrip Latency value is down to around 10 milliseconds, or just under that.  The combination of a Sample Rate of either 48 k, an ASIO Buffer Size of 128, and a Record Bit-Depth of 24 bits should get you down around that 10 ms target.  Those settings are what I run, and my Total Roundtrip Latency runs at a little less than 10 ms.  I have ZERO dropouts and no crackles with those settings.
     
    You report using a Sample Rate of 44.1 k, which is also fine, ASIO Driver Mode, and a record bit-depth of 16 bits, so if you set your ASIO Buffer Size to 128, you should actually end up with an even lower Total Roundtrip Latency value reported by Sonar, and with that low of a latency, that should go a LONG way to getting rid of noise and dropouts during recording.  You might even be able to drop your ASIO Buffer Size down to 64, but I would suggest leaving it at 128 for recording - it should be smooth sailing.  You might also might be able to increase your record bit-depth to 24-bits and still hit that 10 ms target on latency.
     
    I would urge you to try those settings in a new project, and I suggest running lean on effects at first, so that you can just test out the basic recording/playback without complicating things - and make sure you are getting a nice clean sound, with no dropouts or noise.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #10
    jkoseattle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/24 15:02:50 (permalink)
    Ok, thank you for that. I'm not in front of my DAW during the day, but I can answer a couple things. First, the dropouts and noise are happening during playback, which is troubling, because I have that big ASIO Buffer Size (1024) and am still getting dropouts and noise, and I only have two effects on the Master Bus, none anywhere else. (I just re-opened this project after it had been archived for a few years, and the first thing I did was hit the space bar and got the noise, like I mentioned, even after copying all clips into a new clean project.) I haven't even gotten to the recording part yet. But thank you for reminding me about which setting it was I'm supposed to to change to make recording easier.
     
    There is a big gap between the importance of these settings and the understandability of terms like "ASIO Buffer Size" to non-digital audio engineer types. Given how critical it can be, and how one setting does not fit all scenarios, even within a single project, it seems like Cakewalk should make this easier. Like a nice slider available in the toolbar, one side saying "Better for Recording" and the other "Better for Playback". You know?
     
    I was not aware of the license terms for Sonar. I assumed that once I upgrade, I could freely give my old version to a my daughter's boyfriend. I don't think he ever installed it, but I'll let him know. (Which of course means he'll probably just bit torrent it, but at least I'm not responsible...)
     
    I'll look into it again at home tonight. I do know that re-opening the project again this morning I experienced a lot less dropout and noise. Encouraging, but still not close enough to where I can easily work on this beast of a song.
    #11
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/24 15:45:19 (permalink)
    Sure - what effects do you have loaded in this project?  (please list precisely)
     
    Also, try this: load up this problem project, then prior to hitting play, hit the letter 'E' on your computer keyboard, and this will Bypass All Effects.  (hitting it again after testing will turn them back on, or just close the project without saving it).  Anyways, after Bypass All Effects, hit play again and see if that makes the noise and dropouts and such go away.
     
    If that DOES make the noise and stuff stop, then one or both of those effects are causing some trouble.
     
    Also, if you are just trying to playback and not do any recording, it is fine to have the ASIO Buffer Size jacked way up, to give more room for effects that need it.  I think some systems may allow values as high as 2048.
     
    There is another parameter you could adjust: Edit>Preferences>MIDI>Playback and Recording, try changing the 'Prepare Using _____ Milliseconds Buffers' from its default 250 ms up to 500 ms.
     
    Bob Bone

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #12
    jkoseattle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/25 00:53:38 (permalink)
    robert_e_bone
    Sure - what effects do you have loaded in this project?  (please list precisely)
     
    Also, try this: load up this problem project, then prior to hitting play, hit the letter 'E' on your computer keyboard, and this will Bypass All Effects.  (hitting it again after testing will turn them back on, or just close the project without saving it).  Anyways, after Bypass All Effects, hit play again and see if that makes the noise and dropouts and such go away.
     
    If that DOES make the noise and stuff stop, then one or both of those effects are causing some trouble.
     
    Also, if you are just trying to playback and not do any recording, it is fine to have the ASIO Buffer Size jacked way up, to give more room for effects that need it.  I think some systems may allow values as high as 2048.
     
    There is another parameter you could adjust: Edit>Preferences>MIDI>Playback and Recording, try changing the 'Prepare Using _____ Milliseconds Buffers' from its default 250 ms up to 500 ms.
     
    Bob Bone




    The effects loaded at the Master Bus are Sonitus Equalizer and Voxengo SPAN. Hitting 'E' before Play (as neat little trick I didn't know about) makes no difference.
     
    Someone else had suggested the Prepar Using ___ Millisecond setting, I'd jacked it way up. Moved it back to 500.
     
    With all the settings listed in the earlier post, basically everything you recommend for playback, the dropouts, noise and crackles continue, especially after about 30 seconds in. Better than it was, but still poor. My settings are:
     
    AUDIO:
    Sample Rate: 44100
    ASIO Buffer Size: 1024
     
    SONAR:
    Sample Rate: 44100
    Driver Mode: ASIO
    Total Roundtrip Latency: 48 ms
    Record Bit Depth: 16
     
    Of course my roundtrip latency is nowhere near 10 ms. I can get it to 7 ms by changing the ASIO buffer size to 128, but of course I get nothing but noise then. Still, I'm disheartened that you claim that the above settings should put my latency at 10 ms and I should have no problems.
     
    The middle section has longer note values and fewer instruments playing, but that's where all the dropouts really get going. The opening minute is a lot of instruments and a lot of notes. If I start playback in the middle of the piece, it's a bit better, but still gets into the dropouts almost immediately. The fact that this seems opposite to what I would expect makes me realize I really don't understand how all this works. Also, percussion (snare and timpani) seem to drop out much more often, if that's valuable.
     
    Now what?
    #13
    twaddle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/25 07:31:29 (permalink)
    jkoseattle
    twaddle
    Is this all happening on the same machine that you had 8.5 installed on or is it a new machine ?
    If it's the same on do you still have 8.5 installed ? I t might be useful to reinstall it as it can quite hapilly
    coexist with X3. Just so you can check that it runs okay in 8.5 and compare all your settings.
     
     
    Steve


    8.5 is uninstalled, and I gave it to someone. I can get it back, but would rather not go to all that if not necessary.




    Hmm, so essentially you can't run east west orchestra in sonar X3 but you could in 8.5 and it's the same machine
    with all the same hardware?
     
    Not sure that installing 8.5 will work but if the project still opens in 8.5 you could compare all your settings
    and adjust any that are different.
     
    It's obviously not effects related but have you tried opening the project in safe mode?
    Load everything apart from east west ?
     
     
    Steve

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    #14
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/25 08:52:06 (permalink)
    OK - don't panic, we'll get this figured out (he expresses hopefully).  :)
     
    Can you please detail your system specs, such as how I have mine listed in the signature section of this post?
     
    (I actually recommend you edit your forum profile's signature section to add your specs.  Lots of us in the forum do that, so that when we post issues, others can immediately get an idea of what our systems look like, and that greatly speeds up the problem solving process in a lot of cases.  To add your specs to your forum signature: go to the top of the forum page, click on User Control Panel up in the top right corner, then click on Signature and Comment, add your specs, also making SURE to check the box that says 'Always attach signature to post', then click Save Profile).
     
    So, the whole thing about the ASIO Buffer Size and latency, and having to flip between low and high, depending on what you are doing and all of that:
     
    When you are using WDM drivers, Sonar DOES provide a handy slider for adjusting Buffer Size, and that's cool, but it only works when using WDM.  When you use ASIO drivers (which is most likely the best choice for you), you have to make the Buffer Size adjustments through the control panel for your audio interface.  
     
    When you are in the process of RECORDING tracks, you really want to get things set up to where your Total Roundtrip Latency is down around 10 milliseconds or a little bit less.  If your latency gets much above 10 milliseconds, you will begin to hear a bit of a 'lag' and the sound can become problematic.
     
    When you are finished recording, and move on to MIXING, you will have to adjust your ASIO Buffer Size way up, to allow the inclusion of the kinds of effects that use 'look ahead processing', where they load in data ahead of what is playing, in order to do particular kinds of effects processing.  These effects are designed expressly for the mixing/mastering process, and NOT meant to be used for recording tracks, because the way they do their thing requires a much larger ASIO Buffer to support reading all of that data ahead of time.
     
    SOOOO, when you work with projects, you basically have the 2 kinds of requirements for ASIO Buffer Size: small for low latency when recording, and large (even huge) for high latency when mixing/mastering.  This is a basic fact of life when working with any DAW, such as Sonar, and you will, over time, get used to adjusting the ASIO Buffer Size when needed, and you will also become aware of the IMPACT certain plugins have on projects - meaning that you need to be careful in the recording part of it not to load effects that induce large amounts of latency.
     
    I am guessing that if you were to set things at: Driver Mode ASIO, ASIO Buffer Size of 128, Sample Rate of 44.1 k or 48 k, Record Bit-Depth of 24 bits, and a Total Roundtrip Latency of around 10 ms or a little less, that in a NEW project, you would not likely have any dropouts, lag, crackles, or noise.
     
    So, just for a test, try the above settings in a new project, with just a small number of synths, and make sure that things record with no sound issues.
     
    OK - so that's a crash course on some of the ASIO Buffer Size stuff.  Back to the current nightmare.
     
    I do not yet know your system specs, so this is conjecture, but I am wondering if perhaps you might try a test where you 'freeze' your synths.  (do this on a backup copy of your project - since this is for the moment just a test).
     
    Here is some Sonar documentation on Freezing:
     
    http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X3&Lang=EN&Req=Mixing.23.html
     
    Scroll down to the section titled; To Freeze a Soft Synth.
     
    So give the above a shot and post back.
     
    Bob Bone
     
     
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #15
    jkoseattle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/25 10:33:32 (permalink)
    Thanks very much for all this assistance. I'm totally appreciating it. 
     
    I've edited my signature at the bottom, good thinking. One thing that I find curious is that in both your signature and in your last post you imply that the roundtrip latency is something I'm to set, as opposed to a result of other settings. Anyway, it's all there now afaik.
     
    I do know about freezing synths because I do that at mixing time when I'm adding EQ on just about every track. For this project, I just now froze the whole brass section and three percussion tracks. Fewer dropouts, but still some, and dropouts got frozen into the audio anyway, I assume because fast bounce was turned on. Don't tell me I have to freeze and thaw tracks using slow bounce all the time to get this to work! I hate freezing tracks anyway, even fast, because I need to be able to make quick decisions across instruments and sections and freezing and thawing bogs the whole flow.
     
    I tried a new project started from the same template as this one, connected five synths and recorded stuff in all of them, no dropouts or anything as far as I could tell. Didn't get as far as doing the whole orchestra in that test.

    Sonar Version: Platinum  
    Audio Interface: M-Audio Delta
    Computer: Dell i5 3.1 GHz, 12Gb RAM, Windows 10 64-bit
    Soft Synths: EastWest PLAY Symphonic Orchestra
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio 2x2 MidiSport Anniv Edition
    Settings: 16-Bit, Sample Rate 44.1k, ASIO Buffer Size 128-1024, Record/Playback I/O Buffers play:256k, rec: 64k, Total Round Trip Latency 48 ms  
    Check out my work here
    #16
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/25 11:26:02 (permalink)
    You cannot directly set Total Roundtrip Latency, but your other settings factor into it becoming what it is.
     
    So, with your ASIO Buffer Size set to 128, Sample Rate of 48 k, and Record Bit-Depth set to 24 bits, you may end up with a Total Roundtrip Latency of perhaps 9-10 milliseconds.  If all the settings remain the same, but you change the ASIO Buffer Size to 1024, your Total Roundtrip Latency may go up to 45-50 milliseconds.  So, not a direct setting of Total Roundtrip Latency, but your settings PRODUCE the eventual Total Roundtrip Latency that gets reported.
     
    I was just asking for a TEST of freezing things, to see if we could reduce the dropouts and noise and such, by reducing the processing demands, and help identify factors in causing the issues you are having.
     
    Since freezing some things made things better, and starting a new project with fewer components played cleanly, it seems like a resource issue indeed may be a significant contributing factor in the issues you are having.
     
    I would like you to try an additional test, which you would perform with Sonar NOT running. (strange as that sounds).  I would like you to download a freeware program called DPC Latency Checker, and run it for 3-4 minutes with Sonar NOT running, so that the program can measure your computer's basic ability to handle streaming audio processing, which is what Sonar does.  I am just curious if something else running in your system might be part of the issue with your issues.
     
    DPC Latency Checker is available here:
     
    http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
     
    So, please post back the results from your measuring your computer's basic DPC Latency.
     
    Bob Bone
     
     
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #17
    jkoseattle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/25 20:33:34 (permalink)
    OK, I let DPC Latency Checker run for a few minutes. Current Latency sits around 170, and absolute maximum is 278.

    Sonar Version: Platinum  
    Audio Interface: M-Audio Delta
    Computer: Dell i5 3.1 GHz, 12Gb RAM, Windows 10 64-bit
    Soft Synths: EastWest PLAY Symphonic Orchestra
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio 2x2 MidiSport Anniv Edition
    Settings: 16-Bit, Sample Rate 44.1k, ASIO Buffer Size 128-1024, Record/Playback I/O Buffers play:256k, rec: 64k, Total Round Trip Latency 48 ms  
    Check out my work here
    #18
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/25 20:46:31 (permalink)
    OK - that's GREAT news.  That means, that whatever is happening is NOT due to some weird thing elsewhere in your computer, so we don't have to go chasing down issues from hardware or other device drivers and such.  :)
     
    Now - I did some digging, and happened to notice some folks on the web in other places had complained about 'noise' and such from the East West stuff.  I have to look into those claims further, so don't panic - I just thought I should mention seeing those.
     
    We WILL (hopefully) get to the bottom of this.
     
    I just finished typing a REALLY lengthy post for someone on setting up and using Kontakt multi-racks in Sonar, so my brain hurts and my fingers are hungry (as is the rest of me).
     
    I will be offline for at least a couple of hours chilling, but will jump back into this thread sometime tonight, prior to calling it a day.  I want to read through everything thus far, as well as do some additional research elsewhere on the web, to see what else we can look at for getting you past these issues.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #19
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/25 22:55:52 (permalink)
    Hey - can you please detail your sample library locations for these East/West instruments, AND also list your hard drive configuration for the computer (how many hard drives, and what sorts of things are stored on each one)?
     
    I am wondering if you are just trying to stream too much data through a single hard drive.
     
    The other thing is that you might be too lean on memory to be loading that many instruments and samples and programs - 6 GB seems a bit light for trying to run that much.
     
    IF you have multiple hard drives, you might find some relief by shifting the location of some of those instrument's sample libraries to a different hard drive.  That would cut down on how much data would have to push through a single drive.  Just a thought - I would suggest just a copy/paste operation, and an alteration of the library location parameters for several of the instruments, so that to undo it after testing, you would just change the location parameters back and delete the content from the new locations.
     
    Just some thoughts.
     
    Bob Bone
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #20
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/25 23:04:31 (permalink)
    Also, if I am looking at the correct documentation, here is something pulled from the www.soundonline.com web site for Play:
     
    "As a plug-in, you can load as many instruments as you want, but you will have only 16 unique MIDI channels to control them per each instance of PLAY. This is a limitation of the plug-in standards and MIDI."
     
    So, why would you load more than 16 instruments into a single instance of this?
     
    Bob Bone
     
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #21
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/25 23:17:23 (permalink)
    So, here is a link to online documentation (their knowledge base) of SounsOnline.com:
     
    http://www.soundsonline.com/knowledgebase
     
    Please scroll down to Section 5 - Performance, and expand the various tabs within that section, as there is some info that might help you.  Here are some things I pulled from there:
     
    From Section 5.1  - talking about notes dropping out
     
    There can be several reasons. Check each of the following to see which applies in your case.
    Voice Limit: Each instrument has its own voice limit that you can raise in the case that you're getting drop outs. Select Main Menu > Current Instrument > Advanced Properties to open a dialog and raise the value for Voice Limit.  Overload Protection: In some cases, disabling overload protection can help with dropped notes. Open the Settings dialog and select the Overload tab. Disable overload protection by turning off the checkbox and applying the change. (If this is not the cause of the problem, you may want to turn Overload Protection back on.)  Sample Purge: Try freeing up some of the allocated memory by purging samples that are not being used. You can do this in the Advanced Properties dialog at Main Menu > Current Instrument. If you click on the Purge button, samples from that instrument that have not been triggered in this session are removed from memory to free up resources.  The normal procedure for a Purge is click on the Reset button to clear the list of note that have been played so far, then play the sequence, then click "Purge." Any notes not played since you last reset are removed from memory. If you play any note purged from memory, nothing will sound.     To get all samples back into memory, click on Reload.  Reset: clears the list of which notes have been played.  Purge: removes samples not played since the last reset.  Reload: returns all samples for this instrument to memory.
     
    From Section 5.2 - talking about hearing clicks and pops
     
    Clicks and pops during playback are symptomatic of performance issues, most notably samples not be streamed from the hard drive in time. Please raise the audio buffer size in your host sequencer to alleviate this problem. If you're using PLAY in standalone mode, the buffer size can be changed in the Settings menu under the Audio tab.
     
    From Section 5.4 - talking about pops and crackles in the bounced audio.
     
    While there are settings to adjust that might help with performance issues when bouncing to audio, generally EastWest does not recommend bouncing audio faster than real-time. That's because PLAY is streaming samples from the hard drive in real-time and the host is not aware when the streaming cannot keep up.
     
    Bob Bone
     
     

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #22
    jkoseattle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy RESOLVED! 2014/04/26 10:44:51 (permalink)
    OK, lots to respond to (but with a happy ending)...
     
    Hard Drive specs:
    All of Sonar is on my C: drive, and my EWSO library is on the F: drive, which is a different physical drive. C: is a standard 400 Gb drive, but only has 22 Gb free. F: is an external drive, called a FreeAgent GoFlex drive, 1TB, 248Gb free. Other than Sonar and PLAY, I don't really use any other soft synths. I have a rack mount synth I use frequently, but it's an external box. Except for Voxengo SPAN and random rare exceptions, I don't use any effects that didn't come with Sonar. I also use Adobe Audition on here, but my workflow is such that they are never running at the same time. I am usually only messing with a single wav file in Audition.
     
    This has been my music workstation for a few years, and while at first I recall having these dropout problems, at some point I solved them or they went away. That was mostly in 2012 when I did my first album, using 8.5. I did a few smaller projects in 2013 and don't remember any problems. Then I upgraded to X3 at the beginning of 2014 and am just starting in on a new album. I try not to use this computer for anything other than Sonar projects, but Sibelius, Zune and iTunes are on here too. Occasionally I will be running Sonar while Zune or iTunes is open, but I've never noticed any performance issues when they were open.
     
    Like you, I have wondered also why someone would try to put a whole bunch of instruments into a single instance of Play. I've never done that. I have the Symphonic Orchestra Gold collection and added the Close Mic library.
     
     
    I have also never used fast bounce to audio, because they aren't kidding in that paragraph you pasted; using fast bounce never works for any instrument ever. I fold laundry while bouncing my tracks to audio.
     
    Most of the instruments use both the regular "stage mic" and the "close mic" samples, which I can mix with sliders. Hey...... it just occurred to me that I might be needlessly doubling the samples in memory for many instruments, as I usually mix my instruments to be about 90% close mic. Let me go right now and see what happens when I remove a bunch of stage mic samples which barely register anyway and use ONLY close mic. One moment while I try this....
     
    ....EUREKA!!! That made a big difference! Of my 20 or so instruments, I removed the Stage Mic samples from all but 3-4 of them, and suddenly things are a lot smoother. And the piece sounds basically exactly the same (minus dropout, of course!). Still occasional dropouts, but they aren't anything I can't deal with, and playing a section a second time makes the dropouts go away (which I don't understand, but whatever). WOO HOOOOO!!!!!!
     
    I had also unchecked the Overload setting in Play per the suggestion you pasted here, but when I turned it back on after removing Stage Mic samples, it didn't seem to make any difference.
     
    Another thing I do is load all the keyswitch possibilities for every instruments, to keep the creative flow as clean as possible. I don't like to pre-determine what kinds of attack I might need on a string section beforehand, for example. I know I'm loading a lot into memory I don't use, but I don't want to part with that flexibility. I will definitely look into the Purge though if I start getting more dropouts and crackles than I like. That play documentation section 5 is very useful, and while I know I'm doing things that push the limits, now I know where to go to troubleshoot it.
     
    So, I think we're done here! Thanks Bob for all your tireless help on this, you really helped me a HUGE amount. I've added you to my thank you list in my Grammy acceptance speech :-).
     
    One other issue: My orchestrations aren't nearly as good as I thought they were when I decided to re-open this project. What was I thinking? Clearing all the technical issues out of the way is now forcing me to face the REAL work. Damn you...

    Sonar Version: Platinum  
    Audio Interface: M-Audio Delta
    Computer: Dell i5 3.1 GHz, 12Gb RAM, Windows 10 64-bit
    Soft Synths: EastWest PLAY Symphonic Orchestra
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio 2x2 MidiSport Anniv Edition
    Settings: 16-Bit, Sample Rate 44.1k, ASIO Buffer Size 128-1024, Record/Playback I/O Buffers play:256k, rec: 64k, Total Round Trip Latency 48 ms  
    Check out my work here
    #23
    jkoseattle
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/26 10:52:25 (permalink)
    How do I change the thread title?

    Sonar Version: Platinum  
    Audio Interface: M-Audio Delta
    Computer: Dell i5 3.1 GHz, 12Gb RAM, Windows 10 64-bit
    Soft Synths: EastWest PLAY Symphonic Orchestra
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio 2x2 MidiSport Anniv Edition
    Settings: 16-Bit, Sample Rate 44.1k, ASIO Buffer Size 128-1024, Record/Playback I/O Buffers play:256k, rec: 64k, Total Round Trip Latency 48 ms  
    Check out my work here
    #24
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: All of a sudden EastWest gone crazy 2014/04/26 11:04:32 (permalink)
    To change the thread title, you just open the first post and edit the subject line, then save the change.
     
    Very happy you are starting to come to your senses :)
     
    (that's the wise guy way of congratulating you for simplifying the processing demands, and for beginning to take a fresh look at some of the arrangements)
     
    I am VERY happy you have been able to improve some of the nightmares, and hope you are able to get some work done.
     
     
    Bob Bone

    Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
     
    Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
    Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
    Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
    Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
    MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
    Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
    #25
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