AnsweredWill there be an x3 F?

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Anderton
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 03:28:59 (permalink)
elsongs
The next Sonar version may very well be a Tascam-branded product...


I doubt it.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#31
Splat
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 07:43:36 (permalink)
I don't think anybody wrote anything about fixing 'all' bugs, but there has to be a certain level that should be deemed acceptable, and some have to be fixed if critical. Not being able to fix 'all' bugs of course is entirely valid as all bugs will never be identified, however it is a weak argument to say it is impossible to fix entirely reproducible bugs over a reasonable period of time

Nowadays it is all about user experience. Support and project managers are now being listened to a bit more and are managing to successfully fend off the marketing dept who keep demanding new features. The days whereby it was acceptable to have longstanding visible bugs for years are now gone.

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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#32
stevec
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 07:51:09 (permalink)
CakeAlexS

...Nowadays it is all about user experience.




Yup.   And personally, my user experience with X3 has been rather good.  

SteveC
https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi
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#33
Splat
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 07:51:47 (permalink)
Same here pretty much... Well it's a big improvement.

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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#34
emwhy
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 07:56:43 (permalink)
X3e has been good to me as well. Very happy with it from the first release. No show-stopper bugs and I'm wrapping-up a 9 song CD project with it that was started in X3c. Any crashes (had maybe 3 or 4) were all projects that involved Kontakt. I don't blame that on SONAR as Kontakt crashes Pro Tools for me as well from time to time.
 
 
#35
jb101
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 07:59:20 (permalink)
X3 has been a great user experience for me.
 
Very happy with X3e.

 Sonar Platinum
#36
jm24
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 09:23:21 (permalink)
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Look, Mr. Scott, I'd love to explain everything to you, but the Captain wants this spectrographic analysis done by 1300 hours.
[La Forge goes back to work; Scotty follows slowly]
Scotty: Do you mind a little advice? Starfleet captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way. But the secret is to give them only what they need, not what they want.
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Yeah, well, I told the Captain I'd have this analysis done in an hour.
Scotty: How long will it really take?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: An hour!
Scotty: Oh, you didn't tell him how long it would *really* take, did ya?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Well, of course I did.
Scotty: Oh, laddie. You've got a lot to learn if you want people to think of you as a miracle worker.
#37
icontakt
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 09:47:51 (permalink)
Even I'm not asking for fixing all bugs. 
But lots of minor issues left unfixed can amount to one big issue (showstopper) one day...

Tak T.
 
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#38
robert_e_bone
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 10:00:40 (permalink)
@emwhy - here is your quote from above: "Any crashes (had maybe 3 or 4) were all projects that involved Kontakt."
 
Can you please start up a new thread that details your issues with Kontakt?  I use Kontakt all the time, and do not have crashes, so maybe between us we could figure out how to get you past those issues.
 
Thanks, 
 
Bob Bone
 

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#39
dcumpian
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 10:09:30 (permalink)
robert_e_bone
@emwhy - here is your quote from above: "Any crashes (had maybe 3 or 4) were all projects that involved Kontakt."
 
Can you please start up a new thread that details your issues with Kontakt?  I use Kontakt all the time, and do not have crashes, so maybe between us we could figure out how to get you past those issues.
 
Thanks, 
 
Bob Bone
 




I've never had Kontakt crash Sonar yet either. I would guess it may be a problem with a particuilar library or memory pressure.
 
Regards,
Dan

Mixing is all about control.
 
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#40
Anderton
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 11:04:42 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
I don't think anybody wrote anything about fixing 'all' bugs, but there has to be a certain level that should be deemed acceptable, and some have to be fixed if critical.

 
And that's the whole point - where does the line get drawn? Who decides what is criticial and what is acceptable? In my calculus analogy, when does the ball reach the wall? For people who use the playlist, its functional issues were critical. I don't use the playlist, so I don't care. Someone at Cakewalk decided the playlist affected enough people that it needed to be fixed, but also decided that less critical bugs, or bugs for which there are workarounds or solely affect cosmetics, did not need the same priority.
 

Not being able to fix 'all' bugs of course is entirely valid as all bugs will never be identified, however it is a weak argument to say it is impossible to fix entirely reproducible bugs over a reasonable period of time



Of course it's possible if you devote all your resources to bug fixes, ignore feature requests, don't maintain a competitive edge by developing a new version, and can QC all the fixes so thoroughly that fixing some bugs won't introduce other, and possibly even more subtle, bugs that then need to be fixed. Anything's possible, but at some point the realtiy is that it's necessary to decide where to make the inevitable tradeoffs that have to be made.
 
I've never seen a software company that's immune from this reality of making decisions regarding tradeoffs; Cakewalk is no different. This isn't an apologia for software companies, just what I think is a realistic assessment of what's involved in the production of software.
 
But the same holds true for almost everything; it's possible to produce a newspaper without errors, but the fact-checkers spend the most time on the most important stories. That way if they're going to be humiliated it happens in the story on page 48 about the hair salon opening, not the headline on page 1 about the cause of a plane crash.
 
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#41
Splat
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 11:33:40 (permalink)
Anderton
Who decides what is criticial and what is acceptable?



That's easy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(software_development)
 
Assuming agile development methodology is being used... I suspect it is (or am I wrong?). The flipside of this methodology (as with all development methodologies) is that customer demands can be misread. For instance many people just read the forums but don't post, therefore it is difficult to listen to their demands. My bug list is compiled from many users not just one user so it is across the board. It is fairly immune from one persons opinion as it's there clear as day. How do you define who's opinion is more important than the rest? The person who shouts the loudest? The answer is you don't, you consider impact and how long these things have been out there in the field. You also consider the possible reputation of the product.... i.e. what is clearly visible from the consumer perspective. The fact that there is a debate about this at all should allow a few pointers.
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/04/25 11:53:42

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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#42
lawp
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 11:49:51 (permalink)
Fix existing features before adding new ones

sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 11:58:00 (permalink)
Right, and don't bother fixing features you are going to replace anyway in X4 (waste of time). I have a fairly good guess as to what I suspect we will see in X4 purely by what isn't being fixed (I hope I am right).

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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#44
declan
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 12:08:27 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
I don't think anybody wrote anything about fixing 'all' bugs, but there has to be a certain level that should be deemed acceptable, and some have to be fixed if critical. Not being able to fix 'all' bugs of course is entirely valid as all bugs will never be identified, however it is a weak argument to say it is impossible to fix entirely reproducible bugs over a reasonable period of time

Nowadays it is all about user experience. Support and project managers are now being listened to a bit more and are managing to successfully fend off the marketing dept who keep demanding new features. The days whereby it was acceptable to have longstanding visible bugs for years are now gone.



Alex, I completely find this post to be ridiculous.  I understand what is "reasonable" and "acceptable" are highly subjective, but do you?
Of course CW can fix every bug in X3 as of 4/25/14 10:30 CDT for everyone on almost any system if they only used things included in Sonar.  But most people use other things too.
 
I've spent a lot of money on CW products since '95, but I've spent much more on other software and when I see a company I've spent over $1500 supporting taking Sonar off their supported DAW list, that gets my attention far more than anything CW can do.
 
Is that acceptable?  Sure.  
 
I don't post much, and here this is apparently a minority opinion, but: I think you (& thru you Jlien) do a great disservice to CW, this forum and to any kid buying his first DAW who thinks whatever he/she does is just going to work. 
 
Everybody does different things, but some people here are actually very helpful, and not elated to find a bug they can, in most cases, easily jump over.
 
  
 
#45
lawp
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 12:12:30 (permalink)
Well every one is entitled to their own opinion... Alex and jlien please continue as before :-)

sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
#46
Splat
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 12:12:59 (permalink)
> Alex, I completely find this post to be ridiculous.  I understand what is "reasonable" and "acceptable" are highly subjective, but do you?
 
Yup that's why I chose my words carefully. It is entirely a matter of opinion as to what is "reasonable" and "acceptable". I don't see any point in expressing my actual opinion here on these matters, as everybody will have their own idea or opinion as to what this is.
 
The only real opinion I have expressed is the Bakers have been doing a great job so far.

> I don't post much, and here this is apparently a minority opinion, but: I think you (& thru you Jlien) do a great disservice to CW, this forum and to any kid buying his first DAW who thinks whatever he/she does is just going to work. 
 
Sorry I just troubleshoot, try to reproduce, document and log bugs in order to help the product to become more stable. I believe we directly contributed into making X3E and (hopefully in future) X3F more stable by making sure bugs are easily understood. I expect no prizes for this.

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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#47
lawp
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 12:14:39 (permalink)
Oops wrong thread

sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
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stevec
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 13:11:35 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
...It is entirely a matter of opinion as to what is "reasonable" and "acceptable". I don't see any point in expressing my actual opinion here on these matters, as everybody will have their own idea or opinion as to what this is.
 



And IMO, there's nothing on the current list that absolutely requires an X3F.   However, would I install it should it come to pass?   Abso****lutely!         
 
I guess I'm just not buying the concept that there must be additional bug fixes in the X3 series - this is just based on my experience, reading threads from others here, and the nature of the issues on the list.   As Jlien stated, small niggles can add up.  However, that's where we're at with X3e today...  and from all accounts, X3e is one of the (if not the) best SONAR releases ever.   
 
From my perspective I think I'm more curious to see what the bakers come up with next than anything else.   I mean, X3 introduced ARA, VST3, track colors, new comping workflow and tools, video enhancements, etc., etc.   Just imagine what X4 might bring (including lots of bug fixes of course )
 
OK, as you were...
 

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163
 
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#49
Splat
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 13:25:44 (permalink)
> And IMO, there's nothing on the current list that absolutely requires an X3F.
 
I would tend to disagree from my own perspective, there are definitely some issues that are of major concern IMHO for me and probably for others, I would scan through the list again (I will avoid drilling into the specifics as it would invite a football team style thread as everybody's opinion will differ). So let us agree to disagree, of course I do regard your opinion as entirely valid from your perspective so I would say you are not wrong. But it entirely depends what features you are most using, if you are not using feature X then obviously you don't care about feature X being fixed. You might consider working around acceptable, or you might not. Other's opinions will differ. Who is to say who is right, and who is wrong.
 
End of the day it's not our decision it's Cakewalk so who cares what we think, nothing wrong with voicing opinions however.
 
BTW don't get me wrong, Sonar is perfectly stable and usable in most scenarios and just keeps getting better. I keep stressing this fact over and over again.
 
BTW I just took one point from your last post, your overall post was of course entirely fairly balanced and well put (I get it).

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
#50
lawp
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 14:52:17 (permalink)
It's the business /marketing team that needs convincing, rather than the devs ;-)

sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
#51
rontarrant
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 14:54:10 (permalink)
kennywtelejazz
I play guitar and I like to tune down even now and then , so I'm currently running mine tweaked as the X3 Eb Producer Edition  
 
Yeah ,  I know it ain't really funny  ……just killing some time after a late night music session 
 
Kenny
 


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#52
joden
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 14:58:33 (permalink)
Anderton
 
The ability to interact on the forums will go in cycles. Remember, Cakewalk is a small company. If they're on the forums, they're not doing something else. For example, there's now a video series on the virtual instruments by Karl Rose that needed to be put into production. Dan Gonzalez just finished a comprehensive video series on compression and the PC2A, as well as some stories for the blog (as have I). There's always more to be done than time to do it, so the company needs to make choices about how to best use its resources. I think they're doing a very good job of juggling priorities.
 

Product roadmaps, which includes updates, are not for public consumption. When Cakewalk has announced something in advance, it's because they're 100% SURE it will happen. Anything under 100%, even if it's 99.9%, doesn't get announced.




This!
#53
Dan Cate [Cakewalk]
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 15:24:14 (permalink)
Hi Folks,
I wanted to jump in here to clear up some confusion on how Cakewalk processes and handles bugs and how we use the forum as a resource.
 
Cakewalk receives bug reports from a variety of sources including our QA/Tech Support/Sales staff, our Beta Team, and our users. Each report is reviewed and assessed by a team who understands the product and our user base very well. Bugs are prioritized and categorized in our bug tracking system using information from the Sonar Team, Beta Testers, and our users. Our commitment to software quality and the dedication of our skilled engineering staff has been able to bring our customers our most stable product to date. Each cycle it gets better and better.
 
With reports from our users, what is helpful to us in determining bug severity is info on how the defect is effecting your workflow, how common the defect occurs to the user, and how many users are affected by it. The public forum is used as one of many resources for this information and our staff monitors the forums regularly and this info to our bug database.
 
What is not useful to us is lists of bugs and/or simple comments on threads whether bugs are fixed in a release or not. This practice generates a high noise floor of superfluous information that becomes cumbersome for us to weed through, therefore making it harder to assign priority to outstanding issues. Our state of the art bug tracking system is already the best resource for known issues. In order to continue to bring you a high quality product, the forum needs to be a "natural environment" of users participating in a discussion about how to use the product, not a competing database for defect tracking.

Please continue to use our problem reporter and discuss issues that may affect your use of the product. User discussions are extremely helpful to us and we greatly appreciate your commitment to the product. Please keep in mind that any running lists of bug reports or unsolicited posts on individual threads whether something is fixed are not useful to us and may actually obscure our process.


Thanks!
Daniel Cate [Cakewalk]  
#54
jbraner
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 16:05:52 (permalink)
Hi Dan,
The only problem with this is - us users have no view of what's going on with these bugs at Cakewalk. for example, we get an occaisional reply that something is 'being looked at' and then hear nothing.

That's what leads people to compare notes here - and try to find out if it's just them who are seeing the bugs, or if everyone else sees them etc.

I understand that it would be ridiculous for you to publish running commentaries on all the active known bugs - but maybe you could do a better job of informing the people who have lodged problem reports - as to what is happening.

Then those users could report back here that "The Cakewalk guys are on top of this...." Etc etc

Just sayin....

John Braner
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er - that's it I think...
#55
Splat
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 16:16:09 (permalink)
> Our state of the art bug tracking system is already the best resource for known issues.
 
So how do we get access to this so we can make sure we are not wasting time logging duplicate bugs? It's a bit of a timewaster logging dupe issues.

How do we respond when you withdraw an issue as not reproducible when we forgot a step, or maybe you might have missed something. Why must we always have to log the issue again?


And when you withdraw the issue as a duplicate, how are we supposed to track when there is no issue number?

Would you think a list of known issues would not be useful to people?
 
And as you probably know, we found 2 regression problems from the list in X3E last time.
 
Do you want to work with us in improving your product? We certainly have been doing our very best to work with you with minimal feedback from QA :) Some of us have been working pretty hard for nothing...

I'd rather not keep a list but it is all we have.
 
Thanks...
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/04/25 16:31:40

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#56
Dan Cate [Cakewalk]
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 16:41:27 (permalink)
Hi John,
 
Reports that are sent in by users are verified and put into the cue for development. Email notifications are sent let users know the bug is in the system and being processed rather than sent into oblivion. How a bug gets processed is privileged information for Cakewalk staff only. We do not, nor should we, share this information. When an upgrade or update is released, we provide a report of bugs fixed in a KB article which includes the issue description and cwbrn numbers. 
 
As I stated above, user discussions are extremely helpful to us. If there is a particular issue or set of issues that are troublesome for you, please bring it up for discussion on the forum. I recommend using a separate thread and including cwbrn numbers if you have them. 


Thanks!
Daniel Cate [Cakewalk]  
#57
Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 17:04:40 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
> Our state of the art bug tracking system is already the best resource for known issues.
 
So how do we get access to this so we can make sure we are not wasting time logging duplicate bugs? It's a bit of a timewaster logging dupe issues.

How do we respond when you withdraw an issue as not reproducible when we forgot a step, or maybe you might have missed something. Why must we always have to log the issue again?


And when you withdraw the issue as a duplicate, how are we supposed to track when there is no issue number?

Would you think a list of known issues would not be useful to people?
 
And as you probably know, we found 2 regression problems from the list in X3E last time.
 
Do you want to work with us in improving your product? We certainly have been doing our very best to work with you with minimal feedback from QA :) Some of us have been working pretty hard for nothing...

I'd rather not keep a list but it is all we have.
 
Thanks...


I think the confusion here is that people aren't using the form the way it was intended to be used.
 
The Problem Report Form was created for customers to communicate they're experiencing a flaw with the software and for us to communicate back to them when it was resolved. It was never meant to be a community driven bug tracking tool. Since technical support cannot program and fix issues, the next best service for interacting with customers was to let them have a notification that an issue was resolved. This is why members of the Tech Support staff developed this tool. That is the true intention of the form and the service. For the plethora of people who don't participate on this forum, they're very happy to have this as a service.
 
FWIW, the "duplicate" status we use is intended to be used as a way to let the SAME customer know they already have that same issue on file with us. It's not supposed to be used to just say "yeah we know, someone else logged this". If someone is doing this, they're doing it wrong. The person logging the report is supposed to notify you though of your duplicate report number. I'll follow up with staff to make sure they're doing it correctly.
 
To add, I've mentioned it a few times but we do have some ideas in mind for improving this tool for users who do use it a lot, such as yourself. Like anything, these things take time however. There are people (myself included) who are working non-stop on improving a lot of the services we offer, these tools being some of them. Soon enough we'll start trickling down some of the enhancements to these tools to customers.
 
Nevertheless, what I'm vaguely referring to still does not create an open bug tracking solution. As Dan mentioned above, this is managed by Cakewalk staff.

Ryan Munnis
Cakewalk
#58
JimmyBoy
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 17:07:59 (permalink)
Dan Cate [Cakewalk]
Hi John,
 
Reports that are sent in by users are verified and put into the cue for development. Email notifications are sent let users know the bug is in the system and being processed rather than sent into oblivion. How a bug gets processed is privileged information for Cakewalk staff only. We do not, nor should we, share this information. When an upgrade or update is released, we provide a report of bugs fixed in a KB article which includes the issue description and cwbrn numbers. 
 
As I stated above, user discussions are extremely helpful to us. If there is a particular issue or set of issues that are troublesome for you, please bring it up for discussion on the forum. I recommend using a separate thread and including cwbrn numbers if you have them. 




 
hi Dan,
 
I logged a bug several months ago and I know it is reproducible as others here had also confirmed the same. I have yet to have any response at all from the bug I reported. From my perspective the bug logged has gone into oblivion :/ I can't even access the bug I reported to see if there will be any progress on it or not...
 
Cheers
Jim

You this read wrong....
 
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#59
Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
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Re: Will there be an x3 F? 2014/04/25 17:12:26 (permalink)
JimmyBoy
Dan Cate [Cakewalk]
Hi John,
 
Reports that are sent in by users are verified and put into the cue for development. Email notifications are sent let users know the bug is in the system and being processed rather than sent into oblivion. How a bug gets processed is privileged information for Cakewalk staff only. We do not, nor should we, share this information. When an upgrade or update is released, we provide a report of bugs fixed in a KB article which includes the issue description and cwbrn numbers. 
 
As I stated above, user discussions are extremely helpful to us. If there is a particular issue or set of issues that are troublesome for you, please bring it up for discussion on the forum. I recommend using a separate thread and including cwbrn numbers if you have them. 




 
hi Dan,
 
I logged a bug several months ago and I know it is reproducible as others here had also confirmed the same. I have yet to have any response at all from the bug I reported. From my perspective the bug logged has gone into oblivion :/ I can't even access the bug I reported to see if there will be any progress on it or not...
 
Cheers
Jim


Hi Jim,
 
I only see two fault reports matching your email address. Did you manually send a bug report in or was it through the fault reporter? If you sent it in manually did you use a different email address? If you know the CWBRN #s I should be able to look it up, but I only came up with two results that were from fault reports.
 
We don't reply to fault reports. Here's the additional info that explains what happens next:

Thank You for Submitting Your Fault Report!


We appreciate you taking the time to send us your Fault Report. We're sorry you have run into a crash. Using this information we will work our hardest to make improvements and provide our customers with the best products possible. 

What happens next? 

When you submitted the report details, a .dmp file generated at the time of the crash was also sent to us behind the scenes. This file will be run through an automated debugging system that will analyze whether or not the crash was related to something faulting in your Cakewalk program or whether or not it was from a third-party plug-in, utility or hardware device. 

Using this information we can then isolate stability issues with aspects of the Cakewalk program as well as notify third-party companies of compatibility issues. 

PLEASE NOTE: 

This is an automated system that is used for isolating and resolving stability issues. Should our developers require additional information, they will update the report with any questions and contact you via the provided email address. Please understand that you may not receive a reply unless further information is needed or the issue is resolved. 

Also, please note that this form is NOT for Technical Support and is not reviewed by our Technical Support staff. Should you require Technical Support, however, we encourage you to contact our team so they can assist you directly. 

Thank you once again for your support, and thank you for choosing Cakewalk!
 
 
I hope that helps to clear it up!
 
 

Ryan Munnis
Cakewalk
#60
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