Noise issues. I've got a real stumper for you. HELP!

Hi all,
 
So I just got a new PC for use with my brand new update to X3.  I'm loving the computer and the software.  There is just one small catch.  I can't play my guitar near the tower without it picking up noise.  (digital high pitched stuff, not ground loop/60 Hz stuff, that is all sorted)
I am using an Allen and Heath Zed R16 firewire board.  (which is awesome by the way.)
Mobo is Asus Z87 I7 processor, OS drive, Audio drive, backup drive
8 Gb RAM
Win 8.1
Some data:
The noise is picked up by the guitar (humbuckers) ONLY when Sonar's audio engine is running. (project loaded)  If Sonar is on but with no project loaded, there is no noise.
The noise is a function of ASIO buffer size.  The smaller the buffer, the higher pitched the digital noise is.
The noise is there also on MME.
When I play an mp3 through the boards masters using windows media player, there is no noise.  (I believe it is using WDM audio for this) 
I'm monitoring my guitar through the board while listening to the digital feeds whether from Sonar or WMP.
Changing firewire cables (twice) had no effect.
Swapping firewire cards had no effect.
 
Has anyone here seen or heard of a problem like this?  I do have to sit fairly close to the computer in my studio.  (about 3-4 feet) and my last computer did not have this issue.  This noise is with humbuckers as well.  Single coils are a lot worse. 
 
Do I need to put a Faraday Cage around my tower?  (I hope not)
 
Please let me know if you have any ideas...
 
Thanks
 
Erik
 
 
 

Hi Craig,
I just tried that and it made the noise MUCH worse.  (probably a clue itself...)
 
I ran a connection from the guitar cable's shield (sleeve) to the computer case ground.  The digital hash gets way louder.
 
Here's an even stranger one.  While monitoring the noise, (only with an active project open) if I disable all the FX bins, the noise goes away.  Wha?????

tubeydude
Hi Craig,
I just tried that and it made the noise MUCH worse.  (probably a clue itself...)

Indeed, that IS a clue. This reminds me of chasing down the famous "Mackie Whine" that some Mac owners experienced with certain Mackie interfaces, but some didn't.
 
Obviously you're not on a Mac, but the problem related to when the G5 processor throttled down.
 
Are you using a FireWire port on the motherboard, or a separate FireWire card? I generally found the FireWire ports on Windows machines sufficiently problematic that I spent the necessary $29 to get a FireWire PCI card with the TI chip set recommended by most manufacturers. I also got a separate USB 2.0 card for anything involving audio. The motherboard ports get used for mouse, keyboard, etc.
 
Sounds to me like something about your FireWire connection is acting like a transmitter, and whatever shield is supposed to functioning isn't grounded. Of course this is long-distance troubleshooting and likely incorrect, but it's pretty much all I can do sitting here waiting for dinner to heat up.

Craig,
I do have a separate PCIe FW card with a known good TI chipset.  I made sure that the card's mounting angle (the part that get bolted to the back of the case) is getting a good ground from the case. 
The front facia of the case does not have much in the way of shielding.  I may try adding some mesh and grounding it and see what happens.
 
When I pick up the guitar and move the pickups toward the tower, like, really close, the noise increases hugely.  (as you would expect)  If I move the guitar towards the Zed R16 the same noise does increase, but MUCH less. 
 
Leadfoot,
That was one of my first thoughts too.  However, I went through and disables every one...one at a time...the noise got just a bit less with each one being turned off. 
 
I am also not monitoring through Sonar (input echo is off).  I am monitoring the guitar (and noise) through the ZED's monitor section while having a SONAR project up in the background. 
 
FWIW the same behavior manifests itself in REAPER, thought the noise at the same buffer size is different. 
 
Thanks for the ideas guys.  Keep them coming. 
 
Erik
 
 
 
 

I have a similar noise issue, though from what you describe your problem is worse than mine.

I get a high-pitched whine that, as you say, is even present when using a fully shielded Gibson SG or ES135, though the noise disappears when both pickups are selected. The noise also gets picked up by some analogue pedals.

As far as I can trace the origin of "my" noise it seems to be video card and/or hard drive motor connected. I suspect a coil somewhere in the PC is acting as a transmitter. Some applications, typically those with a large white or light grey background, can also cause mouse-pointer related disturbances in what is otherwise a steady whine.

The best cure I've found is to turn so the guitar/pedalboard is at a different angle to the PC/screen than when I'm sitting looking at the screen. This pretty much silences the noise.

Hi Erik,
 
This is definitely a grounding problem. The obvious first step is to make sure everything in your recording chain is connected to the same circuit, or at least circuits that share an isolated ground. Check to make sure you don't have any noisy bits like neon beer signs plugged into that circuit while you're at it
 
My guess is the culprit is your Zed 16: Firewire interfaces introduce a separate path to ground that can produce the kind of digital hash you're hearing. The only solution in that case is, if you're currently plugging your guitar directly into the Zed 16, use a DI with its ground lifted instead. For microphone inputs, you may need to get some pin 1 lift adapters, but I rarely see this kind of problem with microphones - an unbalanced source like a guitar is much more prone to FireHash (trademark applied for  ).

If you are experiencing FireHash grounding problems, the noise is still there as long as the guitar is connected, even when you're not sitting in the offending positions - it's just quiet enough to not notice unless you really crank the system. It's being exaggerated when you position yourself appropriately in relation to the magnetic fields put out by your computer/monitor/console power supply.
 
There's also quite a bit of info about the Zed 16s having grounding issues with their internal firewire connection....seems like it was mostly earlier models, but Google "Zed 16 grounding problem"
 
So, happy hunting - ground problems can be a pain in the arse to track down if the quick and easy solutions don't work right off the bat.
 
<edited for clarity>

Hi all,
Thanks for the replies.  Some more data:
The entire studio is on one circuit, I saw to that when putting it together.  It is also the only thing on its breaker.
There are no neon lights, florescents that could cause the noise.
My Zed is an early one and had the grounding problem initially.  However, I fixed it with the help of Mike G at Allen and Heath.  It has been silent and reliable since then.
 
My guitar is plugged into a Mesa Boogie Studio Pre.  The recording out is then going into the ZED via shielded cable.  
When the guitar volumn knob is turned all the way down (off) there is no noise.  Totally silent.  The noise is only there when the volume is up.  The noise is being picked up by the pickups.
 
Again, this noise was no present with my last computer, (or maybe it was, but just so faint that I did not notice it.)  Maybe the ZED's driver liked XP better than 8.1?  Could that possibly make a difference?
 
In my avatar image you can see the studio.  I typically sit right in front of the board when tracking.  the computer is at the bottom of the rack cabinet to the right of the right monitor.
 
When I hover the guitar over the ZED the "firehash" (I like the firehash moniker...)  does get a bit louder, but nothing like how loud is gets as I move the guitar towards the computer case.
 
Any more ideas.  I really appreciate everyone's input and time.
 
Thanks,
 
Erik
 
 
 

Yep, sounds like the guitar wiring plus lead is acting as a radio antenna, which picks up the radio frequency noise which then gets amplified along with the guitar signal. When you shut down a volume control you're basically grounding out the interference so it goes away.

As I said, my current PC has the same kind of issue. It's almost certainly nothing to do with ground loops (in my case the only connection between guitar and interface is an SM57 in front of the guitar speaker and everything is star earthed). I just get far enough away from the PC tower that the noise drops into the general noise floor.

EMGs might well solve the problem, but they also come with their own tone and a low impedance output which may or may not be a problem depending in what the guitar is plugged into. Some effects pedals (especially vintage style fuzzes) behave very differently when fed a low impedance signal.

if there is a usb/firewire knob, try turning it to 6 o clock (half way)

Hi Erik,
 
I figured from your original post you had addressed electrical grounds...never hurts to mention it though. Without actually hearing the noise, I can't say for sure, but your description seems more like digital noise resulting from a grounding problem introduced by the firewire interface and an unbalanced input than an unshielded guitar pickup humming in the presence of an external magnetic field. It is certainly possible your guitar just isn't shielded very well. It's also possible that your new computer's power supply isn't as good as the one in your last machine, which could contribute to the problem if your guitar isn't fully shielded. Ultimately, you may not be able to do much beyond what people have suggested about just moving as far away as possible from the offending utensils.
 
Something to check out before ruling out ground issues altogether: I looked up the Mesa preamp, and it's not clear from their documentation whether its outputs are balanced or not. Try running the outputs into a DI with its ground switch lifted. Do NOT do what the Mesa manual says about AC lifting everything in your rack - that should only be done in cases of severe desperation, like a show starting in 5 minutes and a stage manager breathing down your neck
 
Another thing to check, if for no other reason than to reassure yourself that everything is good in your signal chain, is connect your guitar normally, but leave its volume down (obviously with the guitar placed somewhere away from where you experience the worst noise issues). Crank the input gain on the Zed ALL the way up, and record the noise. Look at the noise in an audio editor like Sound Forge or Audacity, and see if it's firehash or just good ol' white noise. Repeat the recording with your guitar volume up (muffle the strings with something), but don't play anything so you don't take your head off from the gain being cranked. Analyze it compared to the noise in the first step - that should tell you definitively whether it's a grounding problem or pickup shielding.
 
I'm pretty OCD about eliminating electrical noise in the systems I use and build, but I still get some buzz if I hold my basses directly over my console's power supply (a Yamaha CL5, so it's a fairly meaty external supply). My basses all have active Bartolinis, with good cavity shielding and good quality cabling throughout. Still, they're magnetic pickups, so..... At the end of the day, my solution is not to hover over the power supply while tracking - easy enough for me, but I have a lot more space than you do. You could always try optical pickups, too....
 
Hope this helps!

Hi all,
 
Microphones in the same room are quiet.  I think I will try making sure the guitar pickups and electronics are well shielded and everything first. 
 
With the guitar volume down and the preamps cranked there is only white noise.  No firehash. 
 
Yeah I agree lifting the grounds on everything is not the smartest thing to do.  I have not heard of the "pin 1" Firewire noise.  I'll look into that.  I also tried a regular guitar cable and a shielded TRS cable between the pre and the mixer input...no difference in the noise.  I did lift the ground on my headphone distribution amp.  (I had to to make it usable) 
 
My single coil guitars are going to remain problematic though.  I can correct the noise by moving the guitar in to just the right position, however, that is not really conducive to a natural performance. 
 
There is no Firewire/USB knob that I can see.
 
Anyone know a source for faraday cages for PCs?
 

I tried the video with both HDMI (which I am currently using) and the regular VGA plug.
 
No difference.
 
Also no difference whether the monitor is on or off.
 
I know the ground is good. 
 
I just ordered a top of the line Firewire cable that is more heavily shielded and has ferrite beads on both ends.  I'll report back when I try it.  (I found a thread on Gearslutz where someone was having issues just like mine and this cable solved it.) 
 
Fingers crossed.
 
Thanks!

...a more heavily shielded firewire cable isn't a bad thing to have, but if it is just RFI through your pickups, it won't solve the problem. The only answer there is more cavity shielding on your guitar and/or using humbucking pickups. Or sitting in a horribly contorted position to avoid the stray magnetic field leaking out of your computer
 
Good luck!

diasble C1 and EIST in the BIOS? can be an issue...
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/329790-28-processor-noise-coming-speakers
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/473245-calling-all-gigabyte-mobo-users.html
 
 

tubeydude
 
My single coil guitars are going to remain problematic though.  I can correct the noise by moving the guitar in to just the right position, however, that is not really conducive to a natural performance. 
 

I have the same problem when I plug my Telecaster into my Scarlett 2i2… turn one way, noise… turn slightly another way, no noise.  I just assumed it was some kind of RF interference my pickups were…picking up.  Not even sure if it's coming from my computer or some other local electric device.  Rather than tear my hair out trying to figure out what's causing it I take the lazy man's way out and move the guitar until I don't hear it anymore…of course I get screwed if I move it the wrong way during playing.
 
Didn't see this mentioned in any other response, but if your new machine has built in wireless, you might try turning it off (if it isn't already).
 
Best,
Rob