Anderton
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Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
Many amp sims have an oversampling or "HD" option. Clicking these doubles the internal sampling rate, and makes a major difference in sound quality. This has nothing to do with extended frequency response, but about reducing foldover distortion and having greater accuracy in the calculations that define the distortion algorithm.
Now, TH2 doesn't have an oversampling option (at least that I've found), but lately I've been experimenting with running it at 96 kHz and I think it makes a substantial difference. I don't mean like "maybe I hear something, can you switch back and forth one more time" but something really obvious. Also, the latency is much lower because you're running through the sample buffers over twice as fast compared to 44.1 kHz. I can run at 96 samples and get a round-trip latency of 8.4 ms including all sample and hardware buffers both coming in and going out. The sample buffer itself is only one millisecond.
I'm preparing for my [shameless plug] workshop on amp sims coming up at Sweetwater's GearFest, and running at 96 kHz because it sounds like it makes such a major difference with the distortion. But I'm wondering what y'all think. If you run the TH2 distortion algorithms at 96 kHz, does it sound like a big difference to you?
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leemac
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/22 12:01:40
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Its not very easy for me to switch back n forth from 44.1 to 96, but I do hear a sonic difference from TH2.
Many thanks for that!
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Anderton
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/22 18:17:17
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I think for amp sim standalone use live, the better sound quality and lower latency justify 96K if the computer can handle it.
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stevec
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/23 14:16:45
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So... if one were to bounce TH2 down while at 96KHz and bring that audio into a 44.1 KHz project, the results could be improved? I may have to try that at some point...
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Anderton
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/23 18:01:07
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stevec
So... if one were to bounce TH2 down while at 96KHz and bring that audio into a 44.1 KHz project, the results could be improved? I may have to try that at some point...
Well, I did an experiment that was pretty interesting. To try and keep everything within a single project and avoid any sample rate conversion that might introduce another variable, I set up an experiment with Guitar Rig. GR has an HD option which does 2X oversampling internally; this has the same practical effect as running Sonar at twice the sample rate. I recorded a track at 44.1 and duplicated it. One used GR as a processor set to standard. The other used GR set for oversampling. As expected, the HD version sounded better. I rendered both tracks, flipped the phase on one of them, and nudged the non-HD track a sample at a time to line up with the HD track (HD adds a tiny timing difference--not enough to notice, but enough to require nudge if you want to null). This revealed the foldover distortion/aliasing in all its glory. Now, you could say it was from the HD track, not the non-HD. However, it was clear that the HD track sounded better, so I think it's reasonable to assume that the distortion products were more part of the non-HD than the HD track. So the short form answer is that the improvement of running at a higher sample rate gets "baked into" the track, so when you play it back at 44.1, the improvement remains. Remember this isn't about extended frequency response, but reducing artifacts.
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BJN
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/23 22:53:37
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I got questions but don't know what, so that must be a confusion.
Is there any relationship oversampling on 64bit compared to 32bit O/S?
I have tried hitting the oversampling mode of various plugins but I don't hear any differences?
I will give TH2 a try with oversampling. thanks
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hockeyjx
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/23 23:37:53
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Interesting. Did the same occur for AmpliTube? It seems like this may well extrapolate out to just about most virtual instruments. If that is the case, run 96 on EVERY project. Is my logic on point?
post edited by hockeyjx - 2014/05/24 21:31:06
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Anderton
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/24 00:05:56
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BJN
Is there any relationship oversampling on 64bit compared to 32bit O/S?
No, it's strictly a sample rate thing.
I have tried hitting the oversampling mode of various plugins but I don't hear any differences?
It's more obvious on some sounds that others. Distortion algorithms is where it makes the biggest difference.
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Anderton
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/24 00:19:03
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hockeyjx
Interesting. Did the same occur for AmpliTube?
Amplitude, Guitar Rig, and Waves G|T|R all have oversampling buttons. With GR, it's the HD button to the left of the NI logo. AT has multiple options to let you do oversampling on various modules. G|T|R also has an HD button. Doubling the sampling rate with these when oversampling is already in play seems to have no effect. I don't know if it's because they top out at 96k, or whether past a certain point it just doesn't matter. I'd need to test further to find out more.
It seems like this may well extrapolate out to just about most virtual instruments.
If that is the case, rum 96 on EVERY project.
Is my logic on point?
I don't know yet, but the same thought occurred to me. I think the big question is what kind of sounds exhibit an obvious difference. Guitar distortion seems to be far and away the most noticeable. Perhaps synths with lots of highs would react similarly, but I haven't tested yet. The one thing I know for sure is doubling the sample rate can make a difference with amp sim distortion algorithms. The advantage of doubling project sample rate instead of just enabling internal oversampling within a sim is that the latency is lower at higher samples...of course, you're also stressing out your computer more, and can't stream as many signals to and from an interface.
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myconsumerclub
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/24 03:01:25
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well then it goes that trying 192 and beyond may create even more awesomeness
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gswitz
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 09:54:25
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I basically think double sample rates are usually a best practice (88.2 or 96). I usually use double rates unless I'm recording a full band in a bar. Then I often just go with single rates because the bounce speed is faster and I'm probably not going to add TH2 or that kind of processing on top. I'm curious about your negative test. How do you record the same passage at the same time at two different sample rates to test with TH2? The only way I can think of is to use midi time clock sync between the devices. And still you'd have differences between the devices (at least in my case where I'd use different devices to record the split signal). I also think that for over-sampling, you just double the 44.1 samples. To do a straight double you'd go to 88.2 where each sample was the same as it's pair? When you record at 88.2 each sample is not the same as it's pair, so the straight recording should be better to begin with. Then the output from TH2 will also be better. Your negative test was for Guitar Rig only, if I understand you. In this case we're talking about TH2. Seems like a lot of work to get what will obviously be better IMHO. Regarding 192, in my experience it isn't worth the increased time in the bounces. An additional value to the double rates is you push the anti-aliasing filtering out of the audible range by a mile. When using single sample rates, I think it's better to pick 48 over 44.1 because you have more inaudible range for the filter. At the double rates, I can never tell the diff between 88.2 and 96.
post edited by gswitz - 2014/05/25 10:00:42
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Anderton
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 11:37:25
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gswitz
I'm curious about your negative test. How do you record the same passage at the same time at two different sample rates to test with TH2? The only way I can think of is to use midi time clock sync between the devices. And still you'd have differences between the devices (at least in my case where I'd use different devices to record the split signal). I couldn't do a proper test with TH2. Subjectively, it seemed to sound better at 96kHz but which is what led me down this path. So, I did the test with Guitar Rig because it was obvious that by pushing the HI button it sounded better and was equivalent to running it double the sample rate. This allowed me to use the same piece of original audio and render it two ways - one with GR in HI mode, the other without. I also think that for over-sampling, you just double the 44.1 samples. To do a straight double you'd go to 88.2 where each sample was the same as it's pair?
When you record at 88.2 each sample is not the same as it's pair, so the straight recording should be better to begin with. I really couldn't hear an obvious difference in the straight signal at higher sample rates, only when processing with an amp sim. Your negative test was for Guitar Rig only, if I understand you. In this case we're talking about TH2. Yes, the side trip into GR was to create quantifiable results as opposed to "Hmm, seems TH2 sounds better at higher sample rates." An additional value to the double rates is you push the anti-aliasing filtering out of the audible range by a mile. When using single sample rates, I think it's better to pick 48 over 44.1 because you have more inaudible range for the filter. At the double rates, I can never tell the diff between 88.2 and 96. I can't tell a difference between 88.2 and 96 either. 48 certainly offers a theoretical advantage over 44.1, but I don't know if people could pick the difference reliably in a double-blind test. FYI engineers at both IK and Native Instruments confirmed that there are valid technical reasons why running amp sims at higher sample rates sounds better.
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Beepster
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 11:47:17
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Ok... perhaps this is a dumb question but how exactly are you doing this? Just changing the samplerate fro the entire project? If so how would I go about processing TH2 at 96khz one my guitar tracks on my current project which is set to 48khz? Some kind of offline render option? Wouldn't that screw up the speed of the track?
Sorry... seriously confuzzled on this.
On a related note... I have two cloned guitar scratch tracks with TH2 on them that are using a cloned (Copied) instance of the same TH2 settings and as far as I can tell all the same channel/PC settings yet one of the tracks is a little scratchy/clippy. It's not a big deal because they are going to be retracked anyway but I'm wondering what the heck is doing that. I probably am overlooking something in my channel settings though so not really worth your guy's time to help troubleshoot. Just popped into my head.
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Anderton
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 11:57:03
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Beepster
Ok... perhaps this is a dumb question but how exactly are you doing this? Just changing the samplerate fro the entire project? If so how would I go about processing TH2 at 96khz one my guitar tracks on my current project which is set to 48khz? Some kind of offline render option? Wouldn't that screw up the speed of the track?
When it comes to posting dumb questions, you need to work a lot harder to reach a truly exemplary level of dumbness.  Your question makes total sense. With TH2, you would need to run the project at 96 kHz. I suppose you could record at 44.1 or 48, export the dry track as a Broadcast WAV so it's time-stamped, bring it into a separate project running at 88.2 or 96k, get your TH2 sound, render it, then bring the processed signal back into the 44.1 or 48 kHz project (Sonar will automatically convert the signal to your current project's sample rate). Sounds like a lot of effort, and I guess to get the TH2 sound in context you'd also need to export a premix and bring that into the separate high-sample-rate project. But also note that one advantage of running a project at 96kHz is lower latency if your computer can handle it. I can use 1ms sample buffers with the V-Studio, so the total roundtrip latency including all hardware and the USB delay is about 8ms.
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Beepster
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 12:14:58
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Thanks, Craig. Funny thing is I used to ALWAYS run at 96khz then started reading all the material about how it's not really going to make much of a difference for most practical purposes so I figured I would drop it down to 48 to save disk space/resources... BUT being as how guitar is the central theme of my music and I lurvs me some TH2 I should probably check this out. Especially considering I really pour on the sauce so I'm assuming that the higher the gain/distortion the more I'd need the benefits of this.
It's a shame the Overloud guys overlooked this. Maybe they'll update the program at some point with an oversample feature.
As to the lower latency on higher samplerates... I was not aware of that. I figured the latency would go UP with the higher speeds. Isn't it making the computer/interface work harder?
Damned sciency stuff. :-p
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Anderton
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 13:51:13
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Beepster
Thanks, Craig. Funny thing is I used to ALWAYS run at 96khz then started reading all the material about how it's not really going to make much of a difference for most practical purposes so I figured I would drop it down to 48 to save disk space/resources... The point of this 96kHZ isn't about extended frequency response but improved accuracy with the distortion algorithms. Normally I wouldn't see any significant benefit to running at 96 but this is an exception.
It's a shame the Overloud guys overlooked this. Maybe they'll update the program at some point with an oversample feature.
I'm going to ask if they could consider this for a future version.
As to the lower latency on higher samplerates... I was not aware of that. I figured the latency would go UP with the higher speeds. Isn't it making the computer/interface work harder?
That's why I said "if your computer can handle it." To simplify, the latency is lower because audio is being pushed through the system faster.
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Beepster
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 14:01:18
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You have the ear of Overloud? Sweet. I really can't think of anything I'd want them to change (aside from this now that I know about it) but that's good to know. Great program.
And my system certainly can handle it (I hope... I built it to be a powerhouse) so I'll just go back to 96.
Cheers.
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Anderton
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 14:50:12
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Beepster
You have the ear of Overloud?
Anyone can ask for something
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myconsumerclub
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 21:04:49
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A delay like they have for their keyboard fx is something I'd like included as well. Intelligent harmonizers as well please.
Samsung I7 8 mb ram windows 8 64 bit on everything x2 & X1 producer line 6 podfarm gold interface event monitors Ibanez rg 350 guitar and GA6CE classical edirol pcr 500 keystation 88 plugins out the wazoo
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Anderton
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 21:11:02
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You'll have to ask them yourself, I have my own selfish agenda
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BJN
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Re: Oversampling With TH2 - Try This
2014/05/25 21:16:12
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Hi Craig, thanks for answering my questions. Scroll down for a VST oversampler to over sample a plugin. Can be applied more than once and saved without effecting original. Also some other interesting tools from what appears is a clever codesmith. Let us know if you find anything usable if you ever get a chance to try any out that is, but most likely you'd already be familiar. http://www.savioursofsoul.de/Christian/programs I should add to read the disclaimer links etc. These are old in digital terms
post edited by BJN - 2014/05/26 03:41:28
------------------------------------------------------- Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation. And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes. Bart Nettle
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