Switching to Sonar X3

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johnnymercury
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2014/05/23 11:39:00 (permalink)

Switching to Sonar X3

Hi, I'm considering switching to X3 and wanted some user feedback that might help. I've been using Presonus Studio One for some time and really like it for its workflow and resource management. Editing and mixing are quicker and easier than it ever was in Cubase, which was my previous long time DAW.

However, for me, midi in S1 feels like a struggle outside of basic midi function. I do a lot of work with Vienna Symphonic Library, Sample Modeling and Kontakt and I can't get the same results as I did in Cubase, or Reason for that fact. Unfortunately, Reason doesn't support VSL or Kontakt.

I am going to d/l the x3 studio demo but would like to hear from some users on the midi functionality. Does it have something similar vst expression like in cubase?

I was considering X3 studio, vs producer, as it seems the big difference seems to be in the pro channel and additional VIs. I have plenty of plugins an VIs so unless there is something I missed in the comparison chart, I'm probably good with X3 studio, at least for now.

Thanks in advance for any input and advice,
Johnny
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    Beepster
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 11:49:01 (permalink)
    I never used MIDI when I was using Steinberg stuff so I can't make a comparison but Sonar has an extremely powerful MIDI editor. You can do pretty much anything.
     
    BUT... if you want to use the notation input method in Sonar (the Staff View) it can be a little problematic. If you are doing live input or use the Piano Roll View it'll do anything you want rather easily and AFAIK it is one of the better MIDI editors on the market. You just need to spend some time learning how it all works (ie: keybindings, note hotspots, routing, MIDI track management, MIDI clip editing, etc).
     
    As far as velocities... well I program extremely intricate, nuanced and realistic drum parts with it. Absolutely no problems there so other instruments should be no problem.
     
    Cheers.
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    rbowser
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 12:23:17 (permalink)
    Beepster...If you are doing live input or use the Piano Roll View it'll do anything you want rather easily...


    If you ever input some notes with your cursor, and who doesn't at least once in awhile? - you just have to get used to the odd quirk of needing to aim the cursor, then making a short sweeping motion either up or down to insert the note, being careful to not drag the note to a new position at the same time.  If you're used to being able to click away inserting notes without this extra movement, then you'll be switching back and forth between the so-called "smart tool" and the draw tool often.

    Randy B.

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    Beepster
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 12:30:53 (permalink)
    rbowser
    Beepster...If you are doing live input or use the Piano Roll View it'll do anything you want rather easily...


    If you ever input some notes with your cursor, and who doesn't at least once in awhile? - you just have to get used to the odd quirk of needing to aim the cursor, then making a short sweeping motion either up or down to insert the note, being careful to not drag the note to a new position at the same time.  If you're used to being able to click away inserting notes without this extra movement, then you'll be switching back and forth between the so-called "smart tool" and the draw tool often.

    Randy B.




    I'm not sure what you are referring to. That would drive me nuts. I did have note input problems with X2 but not anymore.
     
    Personally I find inputting data much easier with the Draw Tool instead of the Smart Tool and using the Toggle Last Tool function to bounce back and forth as need be. No double clicking for each note or whatever it is.
     
    To the OP... to expand on my statement about needing to learn it taking the time to figure out what tools do what in the PRV and how to quickly cycle/toggle through them is what REALLY helped my workflow. The Smart Tool does pretty much everything in the PRV but because of that it tends to be a bit of a pain because you have do all sorts of dumb stuff like use modifiers and double or right clicks to perform basic functions. I do not recommend the Smart Tool for bulk note input or other basic functions in the PRV.
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    rbowser
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 12:40:47 (permalink)
    BeepsterI'm not sure what you are referring to. That would drive me nuts...
     Personally I find inputting data much easier with the Draw Tool instead of the Smart Tool and using the Toggle Last Tool function to bounce back and forth as need be. No double clicking for each note or whatever it is...
    I do not recommend the Smart Tool for bulk note input or other basic functions in the PRV.



    Well, but you spelled out what I was referring to - How the Smart Tool isn't the tool of choice in the PRV.  I'm still fairly new into X3, having used 8.5 until very recently, and one of the major adjustments to make was how the basic editing tool in the PRV is more limited, and we have to bounce back and forth between tools more often.  The "smart tool" is pretty dumb in the PRV, sweeping around to insert a note, unable to move it any direction horizontally without letting go and grabbing again.  You're right that the ST isn't the tool of choice for the PRV - That's all I was pointing out.

    Randy
     




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    Beepster
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 12:57:58 (permalink)
    They just tried to cram too many functions into it but PRV editing is pretty intricate so technically if the Smart Tool is supposed to do it ALL it's gonna be complex no matter what.
     
    One thing I think that would have made me use the Smart Tool more in the PRV is if a simple single click performed note entry or at least that behavioral option is available. The two things I do most (as I'm sure is the case with many other people) is input and move notes. If I'm writing something I want a single click to input a note. If I am correcting timing or pitch I want to click and drag.
     
    Both of those functions with the smart tool are, as I recall, a little bit more convoluted so it's much simpler for me to just hit the right key or bring up the HUD to select the right tool and have at it.
     
    The whole hotspot issue with the Smart Tool in PRV and the Clips Pane is another thing that drives me a little nuts too and where the dedicated tools tend to help. It'd be different if I had a huge screen to work on and my screen is by no means small but fiddling around trying to get the right cursor status to perform a function is a little annoying.
     
    I view the Smart Tool as something to use when just poking around at various things. If I have to sit down and do some extensive work doing a specific task then the dedicated tools are what I use. Much quicker.
     
    Cheers.
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    johnnymercury
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 13:52:48 (permalink)
    Thanks for the feedback! I am d/l the X3 Studio demo now and will try it out along with watching the groove3 tutorial videos on Sonar. Cheers!
     
    Edit: I guess I ended up d/l the Producer version but oh well, I'll take account to what isn't available in X3. Based on my reading it was just Vis and the prof fx. 
    #7
    scook
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 14:25:55 (permalink)
    There is only one demo. Both Studio and Producer have the ProChannel. The primary difference between the two versions are the bundled plug-ins.
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    Sylvan
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 14:42:37 (permalink)
    You can enter MIDI notes in the Piano Roll View with a single click using the Smart Tool. No swiping motion needed. Simply hold down the Alt key on the keyboard and click. Note entered.

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    rbowser
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 14:45:39 (permalink)
    Sylvan
    You can enter MIDI notes in the Piano Roll View with a single click using the Smart Tool. No swiping motion needed. Simply hold down the Alt key on the keyboard and click. Note entered.

    Excellent correction, Sylvan - Thanks.  I meant to say that when using just the mouse, as we did in earlier Sonars, then the ST isn't going to behave as expected.  As with many things, knowing the most useful keyboard shortcuts to use in conjunction with the mouse is key to getting on top of X3.  Thanks again.
     
    Randy B.

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    Beepster
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 14:55:13 (permalink)
    Sylvan
    You can enter MIDI notes in the Piano Roll View with a single click using the Smart Tool. No swiping motion needed. Simply hold down the Alt key on the keyboard and click. Note entered.



    I did it that way for a while and still do if I'm doing light input but if I'm going nuts with fills or crazy beats it's just less awkward switching to the draw tool. Then I use the toggle function to either temporarily switch to the Move or Smart tool (usually the move tool) to mess with the feel of things.
     
    Now though I'm using my pad controller more to sketch out drum parts then fill in/correct stuff later.
     
    I haven't done a lot of instrumental MIDI stuff because I'm mostly doing live guitars but I'd still use the Draw/Toggle method or my key controller.
     
    That's just me though... and I'm still finding my workflow.
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    johnnymercury
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/23 23:54:30 (permalink)
    I watched a 4hr video course by Eli Krantzberg and touches on the basics of the essential functions of X3. Looking forward to cutting some stuff on it to see how it fares for me. Thanks!
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/25 05:59:11 (permalink)
    Beepster
    Sylvan
    You can enter MIDI notes in the Piano Roll View with a single click using the Smart Tool. No swiping motion needed. Simply hold down the Alt key on the keyboard and click. Note entered.



    I did it that way for a while and still do if I'm doing light input but if I'm going nuts with fills or crazy beats it's just less awkward switching to the draw tool. Then I use the toggle function to either temporarily switch to the Move or Smart tool (usually the move tool) to mess with the feel of things.
     
    Now though I'm using my pad controller more to sketch out drum parts then fill in/correct stuff later.
     
    I haven't done a lot of instrumental MIDI stuff because I'm mostly doing live guitars but I'd still use the Draw/Toggle method or my key controller.
     
    That's just me though... and I'm still finding my workflow.


    If you don't want to use the Alt key when entering notes, simply position your cursor where you want the note to be entered and double click.
     
    I use the Smart Tool for everything and find little or no need to switch tools.

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    Beepster
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/25 12:39:59 (permalink)
    Hiya, Jonesey. It's that double click that's the problem. If I'm inputting a ton of notes for a beat or fill (like a single beat can be up to four notes which turns into eight clicks) it gets annoying. Also it's just extra opportunity for the note to land on the wrong spot and I have to move it or whatever. Just much easier for me to switch to the Draw tool for a while if I'm going to be inputting dozens of notes per measure. It really does cut down the time and possibility of errors for such brute input. I don't really do the whole "input one measure/reuse measure" thing with drums. It's more constant variations like in prog rock. PITA to do but worth it to me. That's how I used to play when behind a real kit... because I'm a little spazzy. ;-p
     
    Hope you've been well.
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/25 15:19:40 (permalink)
    Hiya Beep.
     
    I'm very well thank you! Managed to end 2 months of unemployment by landing exactly the sort of job I wanted - not studio related unfortunately, but it pays the bills and lets me think about buying new toys.
     
    I see what you're saying about inputting lots of notes and I might just try it out. A lot of our music is prog rock and I rarely use the same pattern twice

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    Beepster
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/25 15:38:10 (permalink)
    Congrats on the new gig. :-)
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    stevec
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/27 07:38:51 (permalink)
    Five button mouse = single click for entering notes with the Smart Tool.  
     

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    mmorgan
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    Re: Switching to Sonar X3 2014/05/27 07:45:18 (permalink)
    johnnymercury
     
    I am going to d/l the x3 studio demo but would like to hear from some users on the midi functionality. Does it have something similar vst expression like in cubase?
     



    There is no VST Expression in X3. Hope you find X3 to be powerful and easy to work with, I do.
     
    Regards,


    Mike

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