X3 Trial Workflow issues

Just downloaded Sonar X3 trial. I’m currently still using version 8.5. Several issues already with X3 regarding workflow, and I hope it’s only due to an oversight on my behalf:
 
Firstly the Piano Roll view – which I go in and out of frequently – has strange behaviour: it comes up as a half size window instead of filling the whole screen. I have to keep maximizing it – not just once, but each time I bring it up. And then there seems to be no way to get out of the Piano Roll except to close it with the red x. If I use my shortcut button on my controller to go from Piano Roll to Track view, or to Console view, the Piano Roll remains, it doesn’t go away. I hope this can be rectified somehow.
 
Secondly, my beloved icons on the control bar, are they gone forever, or can I find them somehow? My tempo change icon, for example, I use it all the time to insert tempo changes in my symphonic compositions. I know I can change overall tempo by clicking on the tempo module, but I might have up to 50 tempo changes in a piece and they have to be inserted in certain places. Without the icon I have to go Projects > Insert Tempo Change. Another favourite, amongst others, was the meter/key icon. Is there a way to get icons like these to show in X3 like in Sonar 8?
 
Also the modules on the control bar don’t fit. The help manual states that they won’t all fit if you don’t have the screen resolution on full. Well, I do have resolution on full (1920 x 1080) on a 22 inch screen and there are still 5 modules “offscreen”.
 
I thought there were supposed to be improvements with workflow? So far all my go to functions require extra clicks of the mouse, and the negotiating of submenus. Another go to for me is the Velocity edit tools window. I was hoping for a quicker means to get to it than in Sonar 8.5, but it’s still the same, it’s still a 5 stage process: Right click clip > Process Effect > MIDI Effects > Cakewalk FX > Velocity. And no shortcut.
 
I’m only thinking of upgrading to X3 because the new version of Altiverb (7) has issues in Sonar 8. But if none of the above can be rectified I’ll be going back to Altiverb 6 and sticking to Sonar 8.5.

Don't close the piano roll view. If you are working with the PRV docked use the shortcuts. SHIFT+D will maximize the PRV. D will toggle the PRV from collapsed to open.
 
If you are married to the idea of button bar, Duckbar http://www.sonarmods.com/forum/index.php will add one. I believe most use keyboard shortcuts to navigate the X series.
 

The Console view is controversial. Frankly, I never used it in 8.5 or X1 but with X3 I'm using it heavily. Much of that is because of screensets and Quick Groups, which are extremely helpful.

My workaround to show four sends is to show two in the main console view, and another two in the track inspector.

I understand where you're coming from, I went through a similar experience with the latest Microsoft Office after using Office 97 since...well, 1997. Nothing was where I wanted it, and whose idea was that ribbon, anyway? But I had to get into it because everyone I work with uses it. And I'm glad I did. Sure, there were some changes I think were ill-advised, but on balance it's way better. Now I'm flying on it.
 
You've been into X3 for several weeks...I've been living with the X-series for almost four years. I am way more productive than I ever was with 8.5, and with the way the X-series is now structured that has allowed for functionality like the improved comping, I expect to become even more productive in the years ahead.
 
The time I spent fumbling around X1 (and be thankful you're making the jump by going directly to X3 and bypassing X1!) has, in retrospect, turned out to be an investment that has served me very well over time. The productivity gains have more than offset the scaling of the learning curve.
 
For me, time is money and at first I was not coming out ahead. Now I'm coming out way ahead, so it was worth it.

frankly... I find the console view to look like "Houston Control" especially if a couple of ProChannels are flown out and loaded up.  Meters all over the place.  It looks incredibly cool, but I need to move to being more functional in it, rather than just it being chock full of analog looking meters, flickering all over the place. 

Also on my 27" monitors... it just seems like I'm only looking at about 10 channels max....with all this other stuff.  And you load up a ProChannel and you end up having to minimize something in it.   I need 60 inch monitors with everything the same size as it is on my 27"

Only just understood Scook’s answer (post #3) to the problem of the PRV not being able to close without clicking the X(close) tab, and always coming up as a small window. I was trying to go in and out of it when it wasn’t docked. I didn’t know you had to manually add it to the docking list; I had thought that as the Console View was behaving properly switching between track view and console view, that the PRV should be also. I couldn't understand why it wasn't. I was actually wanting to stay away from the docking mode altogether as I thought that that was the mode where you have lots of views cluttering the screen. I didn’t know you had to be in that mode even to switch full page views.
 
I also now see that I can dock the Meter/Key view, like you can any other. So I am glad about that.
 
Didn’t get any response about the fact that the full control bar, with all modules checked, doesn’t fit on my screen in spite of the screen being on the highest resolution setting, and being a reasonable size.

> All the modules won't fit on a single screen no matter what the resolution
 
Maybe one day X4 could have something like this for pro channel components....
 
 

 
Imagine each wheel is part of a channel, each icon is a pro channel module, and you could spin each wheel with your fingers...
3 lemons in a row = a hit ;). Well you get the concept.
Cheers
 

lawp
All the modules won't fit on a single screen no matter what the resolution

You can spread it across two monitors if you have two monitors.

Here is a thread that talks about the shortcut keys, and many folks print and laminate them from the Cakewalk documentation - link is in the following thread:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/List-of-keyboard-shortcuts-for-X3-Producer-m2938947.aspx
 
Much of it becomes familiar through repeated use, and many folks that originally hated X1 came to like things over time, with X3 being a highly valued release, for lots of reasons.  It is still not perfect, but is very stable, with really nice and useful features and inclusions.
 
Bob Bone
 

Thanks Alex for link to tutorial video package.
 
I know I come across as a newbie in this thread but, as you can see by my profile “joined” date (2007), I’ve been at it for quite a while. Yes I am brand new to Sonar X series, but I don’t want to pay $40 to have someone tell me how to use EQs and Compressors or how to crossfade or split a clip, or how to edit notes in a Piano Roll, etc., etc., which is stuff I already know, and which isn’t substantially different in approach from the pre X series Sonar.
 
Right now I just want to know if there is a Save icon in X3. It’s pretty much a yes or no question...
 
Thanks too, Bob, for the words of encouragement, but just because something “becomes familiar with repeated use” doesn’t make it optimum. It’s like a city driver having always owned automatics being forced to use a manual transmission, yes it becomes familiar with repeated use, but all he wants is his auto back.
 
Didn’t say I hate Sonar X3, actually like it a lot. But give me a one click icon over a typed combination of keys any day. The shortcut keyboard device you have referred to in your link basically backs my stand point that people love icons and are even willing to pay 169 dollars for them - as the keyboard they’re selling is icon based anyway, with little pictures on the keys. The main differences are that you have to take your eyes off the screen and contort your fingers to hold down several keys at once and may have to take your hand off the mouse. Plus the fact that we are unlikely to use all of the shortcuts marked on the keypad anyway. On the other hand a customised toolbar, like in Sonar 8, enables you to eliminate unused icons and place your go-to icons exactly where you want them – no taking eyes off screen, or hands off the mouse, or contorting of fingers - just click and presto.
 
 

Not to state the obvious or to sound condescending but it might only take a millisecond longer to simply click File > Save/Save As than it does to click an icon. That's pretty much how I've always done it... even on my old DAW that actually had a save icon and pretty much every other program I use.
 
I understand that the X series dropped a lot of customization features and yeah that can be annoying when you're used to it but personally... I much prefer not having unnecessary controls like Save buttons taking up valuable screen real estate. In fact that's why you almost never see those save icons in ANY newer programs. They just really aren't needed.
 
That said... try out Duckbar. I've never used it because I'm fine just working with the program as is but I also didn't use Sonar before the X series. From what I've seen it was much more "traditional" in regards to how it all worked and as much as I can see the appeal in that the more I learn and solidify the "Skylight" way of doing things it's just a HELL of a lot faster and frankly cooler to work with especially now with X3 and the new Take Lane/Comping stuff (which were definitely half baked up until now). Everything else is fine for because I a) didn't have access to all that customization stuff (which seems to be slowly coming back anyway and can be done with Duckbar or that weird code entry section in Prefs that scares me) so I don't miss and b) I rarely alter programs unless I really need to anyway because... well if it's a good program I trust that the people who wrote it wrote it that way for a reason.
 
As has been said... just roll with it for a while, spend some time learning the ins/outs of it and it'll all grow on you. You are making the exact type of complaints a ton of long time users have been since the X series came out and even the most vocal opponents to the changes are now praising the current release.
 
Just sayin'. Good luck.

1.  Unless you try out and begin using Duckbar, and I don't even know if it has what you are looking for, the Save icon is not likely to come back in Sonar, ever.
 
2.  CTRL+S , like CTRL+Z, CTRL+C, and CTRL+V, are really not much of a stretch to get used to.  They are BASIC Windows convention key combinations.
 
Your left pinky will find the CTRL key without even having to look down, and it is a minimal glance to pick either S, Z, C, or V for doing Save, Undo, Copy, or Paste.  Your other choices are to use mouse clicks.
 
3.  Bottom line: use them, or don't.  That's the set of choices.  Your combined keystrokes thus far in this thread could have been used to save likely over 100 projects.
 
I am not at all trying to be antagonistic here -  there is simply LITTLE chance that they would consider losing any real estate for bringing back what are really considered trivial key combinations to accomplish basic functions in Windows, following Windows conventions.
 
I wish you the best with the product, and in life, so keep on plugging away at both, and I think you will find success.  :)
 
Bob Bone
 

CTRL-S, CTRL-A, CTRL-X, CTRL-V, CTRL-Z are universal shortcuts across pretty much all applications (just a snapshot). Really worth learning you will eventually be doing it in your sleep. As a conciliation prize applications are becoming increasingly touchscreen friendly, so I won't be surprised it that will (eventually) the return of the save icon.

Cheers...