Multiple Synths on MIDI

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Tessalator
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June 07, 14 9:47 AM (permalink)

Multiple Synths on MIDI

I'm trying to patch multiple soft synths to a single midi track and can't figure it out.  I'm new.  The midi track only has a single output.  How can I assign multiple synths?
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    Beepster
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 10:03 AM (permalink)
    There might be other ways but the simplest way I can think of is just insert new tracks for each synth you want in the project then copy the MIDI clip into those tracks.
     
     
    #2
    Tessalator
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 10:25 AM (permalink)
    I've been doing the copy and paste, but it seems like a lot of overhead.  I'm just trying to layer and detune a few synths to get a fatter sound.  Seems like something that would be a fairly common need.
    #3
    Steve_Karl
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 10:30 AM (permalink)
    I suspect the "copy the data" is the only way
    but the thought of this makes one wonder why is there not a virtual midi patch bay.

    Steve Karl
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    #4
    Beepster
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 10:36 AM (permalink)
    Tessalator
    I've been doing the copy and paste, but it seems like a lot of overhead.  I'm just trying to layer and detune a few synths to get a fatter sound.  Seems like something that would be a fairly common need.




    hmm... detune? If you just want to have some octaves or fifths or whatever just copy the MIDI notes and lower/raise them.
     
    As far as "overhead" it's not really a big deal if you have a decent computer. This type of layering is exactly what a multitrack program is supposed to do. What will really suck up resources is the synths themselves. The MIDI data is no big deal.
     
    If you are using a multi timbral synth you can send multiple tracks to it through the various synth channels so you can play multiple instruments at once while only using one synth. I think there is a tutorial showing how to do this with TTS-1 at the start of the manual... not sure though.
    #5
    scook
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 10:37 AM (permalink)
    One way is to use a virtual MIDI cable. LoopBe1 and loopMIDI are free. Route the incoming MIDI data to a MIDI track setting the output of the track to the virtual MIDI cable. Then set the inputs of the synth instrument or MIDI tracks to the virtual MIDI cable.
    #6
    Tessalator
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 10:42 AM (permalink)
    Yes, I looked for a patch bay plug-in and couldn't find one.  Even being able to do a midi pass through from one midi track to another would be an option.  Though there would still be multiple midi tracks at least you wouldn't have to put the events into each track.
    #7
    Tessalator
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 10:56 AM (permalink)
    I'll check out the virtual midi-cable; sounds like an option.
     
    Beepster - on the detuning, I'm just detuning a few cents.  Basically like double tracking or when you tune a piano. You don't tune all three strings exactly the same.  Just being a tiny bit off really fattens the sound.  (I was also looking for a plug-in that dynamically and randomly shifts the freq and timing just a touch to emulate double tracking)
     
    The overhead was on me, not the PC  - I'm too lazy to copy and paste!  My PC is pretty massive.
    #8
    Beepster
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 11:33 AM (permalink)
    Tessalator
    I'll check out the virtual midi-cable; sounds like an option.
     
    Beepster - on the detuning, I'm just detuning a few cents.  Basically like double tracking or when you tune a piano. You don't tune all three strings exactly the same.  Just being a tiny bit off really fattens the sound.  (I was also looking for a plug-in that dynamically and randomly shifts the freq and timing just a touch to emulate double tracking)
     
    The overhead was on me, not the PC  - I'm too lazy to copy and paste!  My PC is pretty massive.




    Hmm... well a lot of those synths are tweakable so maybe you could fiddle with them to fatten things up and you may be able to use the multi outs on some of those synths to just use different variations of the same patch (I don't know enough to say if this is possible nor would I know how to set that up).
     
    However as far as the copying you could just Right Click/Clone the track and it will set the whole thing up for you again (and I think create a new instance of the synth). Then just change the synths settings on the new tracks. If resources are no issue then it should be fine.
     
    I'm not a proficient synth guy yet though so those are mostly theoretical guesses. Cheers.
    #9
    Beepster
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 11:38 AM (permalink)
    And to make things a little easier put the clones in a folder with original track and set your Comping mode record settings to "Group Clips In Folders" so that way when you edit one track's clips they all change. Pretty much eliminates all the problems of dealing with multiple tracks. You can group the clips manually retroactively as well by selecting all the clips, right clicking and selecting Group Selected Clips or whatever it's called.
     
    So a bit of work at first but easily doable.
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    rbowser
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 12:16 AM (permalink)
    Tessalator
    I've been doing the copy and paste, but it seems like a lot of overhead.  I'm just trying to layer and detune a few synths to get a fatter sound.  Seems like something that would be a fairly common need.


    Hi, Tessalator - As usual on this busy Forum, you've gotten some very helpful replies.  I'm adding my 2 ¢ because I think it may be helpful also.
     
    You're right that what you want to do is a fairly common need, and the guys are right that you could deal with virtual MIDI cables and set up what you need - But that's not how people usually accomplish what you want. 
     
    You said that you think C&Ping tracks is "a lot of overhead" - not sure what you mean.  That's very simple, and MIDI tracks don't need more than a whisper of power to be in your project file - it's the synths themselves that need the power, and at some point of course you'll hit the ceiling of how many you can have churning away at the same time.
     
    But that's the best method, IMHO, to simply copy the mother track and re-direct the copies to the synth you want to have layered in with the first one.  Back when we only used hardware synths, layering modules was what the whole MIDI thing was about, detuning each one and getting that big wall of sound - The process was a bit different then, but that's the sort of result you're talking about.
     
    If you want to layer various patches from one multi-timbral synth/sampler, that's even simpler.  You just set all the available slots (usually 16 on a multi-timbral unit) to the same MIDI channel, and then tweak each patch as needed, as long as you don't automate the tweaks, since all those loaded instruments will be reading from a single MIDI track.
     
    So - Copy tracks - That's the quickest, most efficient way to do it.  Assign instruments to the same MIDI channel when you're using multi-trimbral plugins with instruments you want to include in your layers.

    Randy

    Sonar X3e Studio
    Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
    Alesis i|O2 interface
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    #11
    Tessalator
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 1:36 PM (permalink)
    Thanks all.  You have been very helpful.  rbowser, yes, that's what I'm trying to do - the old approach for external synths.  With my TX816 I do like you say, just assign each module to the same midi channel.    I was looking at the TTS but didn't see how to set the midi input channel for the individual modules.
     
    I did find a way that works starting with Beepster's grouping clips suggestion.  If you clone a track there is a checkbox for "link to original", and a number of copies option.  I just did a clone of three all linked to the original and changing the original changes all of the clips.  It gives me the sound I'm looking for with the approach I'm used to (I'm just now coming out of the 70's and moving from my 3340S 4-track tape to digital.)  To save CPU I render the tacks to an audio track and then mix them into one. 
     
    I don't know if I should start a new thread, but I have a related question for this approach.  Is there a way to disable a synth but keep it in the project?  Once I have the audio I don't need to run the synth, but if I need to re-render I would need it again. 
    #12
    Beepster
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 2:10 PM (permalink)
    On each track you will see a button that looks like a snowflake. That is the "Freeze" button. Pressing this will "freeze" the track which is basically a temporary render that bounces any synths and effects to audio and disables the synth effects thus freeing up resources. You can click that button again to "unfreeze" it and now you can edit the synth/effects again. You can also just freeze the synth without freezing effects and vice versa as well. Look up Freeze in the manual to learn more.
     
    Cheers.
    #13
    rbowser
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 2:31 PM (permalink)
    Tessalator...I was looking at the TTS but didn't see how to set the midi input channel for the individual modules.
    ...Is there a way to disable a synth but keep it in the project?  Once I have the audio I don't need to run the synth, but if I need to re-render I would need it again.



    In TTS, right click while hovering over the fader just to the left of the loaded instrument's name.  You'll get a "control change assign" option, including what MIDI channel you want that instrument slot to respond to.
     
    In the browser, with your list of synths, click the "un-dock" option and you'll see buttons appear to the left of each synth.  Clicking those either disengage or re-engage the synth.  Then dock that synth rack again when you're through.  It looks like they made those On/Off buttons only appear when you un-dock in order to save screen space.
     
    Randy

    Sonar X3e Studio
    Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller
    Alesis i|O2 interface
    Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz
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    #14
    Beepster
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 2:33 PM (permalink)
    Sorry... I should have mentioned you can Freeze a synth directly in the Synth rack browser too without freezing the actual tracks. Same benefits.
    #15
    jm24
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 2:42 PM (permalink)
    Cloning the midi track is good for changing notes,... for each synth
     
    For unison, full big sound, use a midi cable, virtual, or real. 
     
    I Have used both.   I have loopmidi and loopbe installed.  Follow the links provided by Scook and you will be set for future routing.
     
    If all the synths are to be unison, place the synths output tracks in the same folder, and send to the same sub-bus, and then send to the All Instruments bus, and then to the master mix bus.
    #16
    Tessalator
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 2:59 PM (permalink)
    You guys are awesome, great forum.  Thanks.
    #17
    scook
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    Re: Multiple Synths on MIDI June 07, 14 3:27 PM (permalink)
    rbowser
    In the browser, with your list of synths, click the "un-dock" option and you'll see buttons appear to the left of each synth.  Clicking those either disengage or re-engage the synth.  Then dock that synth rack again when you're through.  It looks like they made those On/Off buttons only appear when you un-dock in order to save screen space.

    Or dock the rack in the Multi-dock. The buttons are visible there too.
     
    Another option would be to bounce the audio to a new track and archive the synth using the "A" in the track header. Freeze performs an in place bounce and archive in one step. If the track is unfrozen any changes to the audio will be lost however the frozen audio can be dragged or copied to another audio track to prevent loss.
    #18
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