Hard Panning Troubles

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davdud101
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2014/06/16 11:01:31 (permalink)

Hard Panning Troubles

Yo, everybody. Right now, I'm working on a song that had these thick multivoice choruses. I have two recording of myself singing the same part, both panned 100%... but they're nearly identical, which pretty much cancels the effects of hard panning. What would you guys do in a case like this? How would you change your mixing choice?

 
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#1

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/06/16 11:17:00 (permalink)
    Throw one away?


    #2
    davdud101
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/06/16 12:03:42 (permalink)
    Guess there's not really another option. I'm trying a different panning situtation now where the my double lead is left and double main harmonies are right surrounded by some other harmonies. I'll have to keep playing with it...

     
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    #3
    spacealf
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/06/16 13:59:16 (permalink)
    You might want to get one of these or something similiar for voices.
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/TC-Helicon/?m=TC-Helicon&sb=&pn=&hide_info=
     
    Sold wherever musical equipment maybe is sold.
     
    Cheaper version than a more expensive unit. But there is a variety of them now, used to not be as many.
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VTD1/
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    #4
    bitflipper
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/06/16 15:25:02 (permalink)
    Complementary EQ.


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    #5
    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/06/16 15:56:37 (permalink)
    The fact you have gone to the trouble of recording the same part twice then the result of hard panning them is still present and worth doing. No matter how identical you think the two parts are they are still differenet and hard panning them will still have the effect of creating a stereo image across the panning spectrum. And it is much more intersting that throwing one away and only using one of them.
     
    If they are very tight timing wise then that can be good as it keeps flamming under control.  (don't be afraid to edit vocal phrases that are out timing wise by a long way. Editing can bring sloppy timing parts back into line)
     
    Try inserting small amounts of delay to one of them if they are very timing tight. eg 10 mS and above.You can create the delay (or advance) by altering the track settings for playing back early or late. Or use a plug in one one side. Channel tools is good for delaying one side of a stereo image etc..
     
    Slowly increase the delay and hear the stereo effect of it. You could evan try modulting the delay to one side of the vocals, slowly.
     
    I also use this:
     
    http://www.freemusiciansr...-spatial-enhancer-vst/
     
    This is a free spatial enhancer. It is great for adding some sense of room around a signal, mono or stereo as well. It can take your your stereo image now a little further and put it in a nice small ambience space. Don't forget to use reverbs carefully to create spaces around groups of voices etc..
     
    EQ used wisely will help to separate the vocal parts too.
     
     

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    #6
    sharke
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/06/16 17:11:34 (permalink)
    A small delay of around 20ms or so works wonders, as does complementary EQ, ie make the EQ curve of one side the opposite of the other. Or try some gentle flanging or phasing on one side. Or a little distortion. It's all about creating side information.

    James
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    #7
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/06/16 17:13:36 (permalink)
    Too
     
     
    Many
     
     
    Headphones
     
     
    ;-)


    #8
    rumleymusic
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/06/17 12:52:09 (permalink)
    The fact you have gone to the trouble of recording the same part twice then the result of hard panning them is still present and worth doing. No matter how identical you think the two parts are they are still differenet and hard panning them will still have the effect of creating a stereo image across the panning spectrum. And it is much more intersting that throwing one away and only using one of them.

     
    ^^This
    Maybe it lacks interest because the parts are identical musically.  Once you add some harmonies and space those voices across the stereo field, it should get more interesting.  Add some complimentary reverb to blend the voices together.  

    Daniel Rumley
    Rumley Music and Audio Production
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    #9
    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/06/17 16:02:55 (permalink)
    If I had two very identical parts I would go back to an editing approach.  (In pop music that is)  I would be cutting and very slightly shifting phrases or even using Melodyne to stretch and adjust the timing of one of them so they became less identical. You could also do some micro pitch adjustments to one of them too. Then you would have a nice stereo image to start with and perhaps enhance a little further. It would also collapse down to mono much better.
     
    A part might be thought of as uninteresting at the start but work with two tracks in unison  (extend out to three tracks for a more lush vocal sound that has the centre image covered too.)  and with some tasty effects can add a lot of interest to that less interesting beginning. Melodyne is powerful for any form of vocal production work. You can build the harmonies there too and without the chipmunk side effects. Singing harmonies I think is better. No harm in shifting a few notes higher or lower to cover the range.
     
    Sometimes you have got to work on the dynamics of say a harmony vocal stem and tame the dynamics down a bit more than normal. The right overall EQ and reverbs  (small and tight just as cool as longer and larger)  on these type of stems are all important as well. They have to sit nicely inside your whole mix.

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    #10
    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/06/21 09:03:12 (permalink)
    I have started recording 3 unique vocal takes for lead vocal.... one is down the center and the other 2 are panned hard opposite. These panned tracks are much lower in volume....
     
    I agree with Jeff up above. No matter how hard you try to make them exact, there will always be enough difference to give a really wide stereo image. That's the beauty of double tracking.
     
    Depending on if you simply want to thicken the vocal as I do or create a multi-voice part.... you would need to set the volume levels of the panned tracks accordingly. For thickening, I set the panned tracks between -18db to -22 db where they are barely audible.
     
    For the situation you are describing..... using thick multi-vocal choruses.... go ahead and record all the tracks you plan to use in the chorus, then, after all is recorded, set up the panning and the volume using the lead vox track as the reference.
     
    I often have 8 to 10 tracks of vocals in songs where there are chorus harmonies. I record them all before I start to set up the mix on them. Often, I have everything mute except the acoustic guitar and the lead vox. When working harmonies in 3 parts, It's necessary to have the 2nd harmony playing as well so I don't double the note in unison or octave. 
     
    Work it one step at a time and don't worry about the mix until everything is recorded properly. It also helps too, to have the vocal parts melodyned or pitch corrected. Some harmony, if it's not tuned, can sound like cats mating in the backyard at 2am..... so use pitch correction, especially the more tracks you have.... if those tracks are up at volume. Sometimes the slightly out of tune vox on a BGV track actually enhances the character of the parts. so decide before you pitch fix everything.... at least consider the lead vox track.

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    #11
    KOC
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/07/01 14:51:48 (permalink)
    TRK 1.                                            TRK 2.
    Pan 100%L                                      Pan 100%R
    subtractive EQ                                 16-64ms Delay
     
     
    Coffee 
    #12
    Starise
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/07/02 11:08:23 (permalink)
    One thing that has helped me in experimenting with the best "difference" between tracks with regard to small differences in timing is to set my project timing resolution to a very high setting ..something like 1/32 or 1/64 and then by using the nudge feature in Sonar I can move things on one track and immediately hear the effect..if I don't like it I simply nudge a bit more. In this way you can get to the best sound between tracks without the timing being too much or little.

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    #13
    davdud101
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/07/02 13:52:40 (permalink)
    I really like all these tips! So it's really the amount/percentage of difference between the two tracks that's going to make a greater difference between left and right, and that'll just take some experimentation with FX and EQ'ing and stuff. I see there are some things that can be summed into several points that I obviously should take consideration of. Thanks a bunch guys for help me out!

     
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    #14
    KOC
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/07/04 00:21:00 (permalink)
    Starise
    One thing that has helped me in experimenting with the best "difference" between tracks with regard to small differences in timing is to set my project timing resolution to a very high setting ..something like 1/32 or 1/64 and then by using the nudge feature in Sonar I can move things on one track and immediately hear the effect..if I don't like it I simply nudge a bit more. In this way you can get to the best sound between tracks without the timing being too much or little.


     Dont you have problems with comb filtering ?
    #15
    The Band19
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/07/04 22:23:51 (permalink)
    I like the idea of LV down the pipe, pan BGV to the sides (but not 100%) Maybe 60 to 80? And use stereo verb and delays but kill the center on them for a mid/side approach. I'm still lerning more about this, but I tried it on my last project with my son and it gave me pretty good results. And then mono anything below several hundred HZ. This way you get meat down the middle, harmonies panned, and FX on the vocals at the edges. Throw in an autopaner as needed and viola! Sweet thick goodness.

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    #16
    davdud101
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    Re: Hard Panning Troubles 2014/07/05 09:28:57 (permalink)
    In fact I tried using the CW Multivoice Chorus, but that thing is odd to work with and gives just really weird, non-thickening FX. I have in the past actually hard panned each, put some pitch shifter on one sides and drop it probably 3-7 cents. I guess A just don't tend to be as vocally accurate as I was here! There clearly are a lot of techniques for making this thing work

     
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