Answeredthe basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it seems.

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_Angus_
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2014/06/23 13:57:21 (permalink)

the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it seems.

In my humble way I've had a lot of fun with Sonar, and its testament to the program that I've got as far with it as I have without major problems.
 
Last night though, I was trying record some audio from a website with Sonar (X3 Studio) and it took me ages to even get the sound showing up on the meter. 10 minutes later I still hadn't worked out how to record it, so I gave up.
 
When I do my little guitar things, the program just basically works, so I've never really needed to understand too much about the nuts and bolts. But I wondered if somebody could direct me to any videos or whatever where I can a get a better understanding of, for example, setting the inputs up to record from a website or just basically recording my guitar etc, and its embarassing to ask, but should my various tracks all be output to the master track, I've always assumed so, but I thought somebody was saying not.
 
As you can see I'm a bit confused, and I think its time to try and address my ignorance - thanks for any help.

Sonar X3 Studio, Win 7, M-Audio 2496, Line 6 Pod 2,  Nvidia GTX 760, I7 3770K, 16GB ram, ASUS P8Z77-V LE Plus, Amiga 1200, Blizzard 1260, Protracker 2.3b
#1
robert_e_bone
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/23 14:50:44 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby _Angus_ 2014/06/24 05:20:23
There are tutorials, videos, and books available, to teach you all kinds of things about using Sonar.  Many are free, with some videos and the books costing some money (but not too much).
 
As far as the output question - by default, an audio track is set to go to the Master Bus.  Whether or not you use additional sub-buses is entirely up to you.
 
Having multiple sub-buses is optional and really for grouping levels and effects for common instruments and vocals.  
 
Watch some of the basic mixing videos available for Sonar, and you will get a good understanding of how to use sub-buses, and why.
 
Bob Bone
 

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
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#2
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/23 15:05:47 (permalink)
When I record stuff off the internet, I use Sound Forge, but there are free audio editors that will do the job.  Audacity is free; http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
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...wicked
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/23 15:07:16 (permalink)
Well, just understanding signal flow will tell ya that trying to record when the source is inside the box is always a little tricky.
 
The web site is outputting audio on, I guess the 2496's main outputs. You want to record that signal, which has already been converted to audio, back into the box, via the 2496's inputs. So, in effect, looping it back in. If you don't have an external mixer what you need to do is physically cable the outputs to the inputs. I used to have that audio card and I don't think it can internally patch it for you. 
 
In my system I have a mixer whose alt-outputs are wired to the input of my sound device. So, when I "mute" the channels they are routed back into the computer. So, recording the output of the device is possible since outputs are patched to inputs. 
 
Aside from that weirdo signal loop, most other things work as advertised. Channel to buses to outputs. It's actually easy to whip it up as you need over time. I used to output everything to the soundcard, then I needed some easy way to meter and mute so I created a master bus. Then eventually I wanted finer control over just one type of track, say the drums. So I created a drum bus and routed THAT to the master. Eventually I created what most people use now, which is a Tracks/Sends->Sub Groups/Fx Retruns->Master->Output setup. All buses do is allow you another point in the signal process to isolate and control signals...so just make them as you need them.
 

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#4
Karyn
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/23 15:40:16 (permalink)
Another option for recording internal sounds that I use is to use the on-board sound for general windows stuff and keep the expensive audio interface for Sonar. I plug the s/pdif output of the on-board sound to the s/pdif input on my interface for recording/monitoring. Everything is kept digital so no signal degradation.

You could do the same with the standard line outs to a spare pair of inputs but you'd need to keep an eye on the levels..

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robert_e_bone
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/23 16:29:40 (permalink)
There are programs that allow downloading of things from sites like YouTube, which download the video files themselves, and then you can convert those to WAV format or whatever you want.
 
I use a program called the YTD Downloader, which is free - you just have to be VERY careful to not end up with extra crap installed when you install the program, because a LOT of the free stuff out there is set up as a 'bundled' install, where they make money by including all sorts of adware and other crap.  So, read each screen prior to clicking Next, and watch for pre-checked boxes for other software and it will then install just fine.
 
It's a great program - and there are tons of those kind of things out there - if that helps you at all.  I just then import the converted WAV file if I want to do something with it.  (I usually import an MP3 version of downloaded songs, just for reference purposes while I build a midi version of a given song - that sort of thing).
 
Anyways - hope any of the above helps - and I also hope you get it all figured out - this is a GREAT forum, with lots of helpful and knowledgeable folks.
 
Bob Bone
 

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/23 16:48:54 (permalink)
I use an extension for Firefox, and Chrome, called Video DownloaderHelper.  
 
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/video-downloadhelper/
 
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/video-download-helper/dbkchnicaiglcjpgbmpfmoafckkomdcm?hl=en
 
This will help you avoid, "crapware," from downloaded software.
 
 
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robert_e_bone
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/23 17:12:39 (permalink)
Yeah - looks nice - and it lets you delete its included 'feature' of adding price comparison stuff.
 
It didn't look like it does conversion though - maybe I missed it.  With the YTD Downloader, it also has a nice Convert tab, which allows conversion of the video clip to WAV or MP3 or whatever.  I find that easy and useful.
 
But, as I said - there are a zillion of those things out there that are free - just have to be careful on the install.  I just thought something like that might help the original poster get some additional options for doing things with videos from the web for inclusion into Sonar or whatever.  :)
 
Thanks for pointing out that Chrome helper - I'll look around and see what else they have. 
 
Bob Bone
 

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/23 17:21:54 (permalink)
I think the paid version has the conversion feature, but I just download the mpeg4 file, import it into Sonar, and export the audio.
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...wicked
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/23 17:50:51 (permalink)
robert_e_bone
 
I use a program called the YTD Downloader, which is free 



+1, I use this too. It'll even convert the video to an mp3 in a second pass if you want. 

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#10
_Angus_
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/24 05:40:34 (permalink)
Thanks for the advice, guys. Funnily enough I got Audacity to record the sound very easily without any rewiring, but I'm not too worried specifically about that - I just really wanted to find some very basic level explanation on the Sonar's routing or "plumbing".
 
At my basic level I find Sonar a pleasure to use, (I tried Cubase and we are from different planets) the one area that I find a confusing and a bit less intuitive in Sonar is the input/output/master/sound card ins and outs selection. That stuff in the Inspector. I suppose I'm just looking for some hand-holding diagrams and a gentle voice telling me its actually quite straightforward and this is what you are trying to achieve and here's how to do it.  :)
 
 

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robert_e_bone
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/24 08:27:41 (permalink)
An example:
 
(Track Folder - Vocals)
Track 01: Audio track.  Input = 1st interface input - guitar plugged in,  Output = Master.
Track 02: Audio track, Input = 2nd interface input - mic plugged in, Output = Lead Vocal bus.
Track 03: Audio track, Input = 3rd interface input - mic plugged in, Output = Backing Vocals bus.
Track 04: Audio track, Input = 4th interface input - mic plugged in, Output = Backing Vocals bus.
 
(Track Folder - Brass)
Track 05: Audio track, input = Dim Pro stereo output (Trumpet patch), Output = Brass bus
Track 06: Audio track, input = Dim Pro stereo output (Coronet patch), Output = Brass bus
Track 07: Audio track, input = Dim Pro stereo output (Trombone patch), Output = Brass bus
Track 08: Audio track, input = Dim Pro stereo output (French Horn patch), Output = Brass bus
Track 09: Midi track, input = None, Output = 1st Dim Pro instance
Track 10: Midi track, input = None, Output = 2nd Dim Pro instance
Track 11: Midi track, input = None, Output = 3rd Dim Pro instance
Track 12: Midi track, input = None, Output = 4th Dim Pro instance
Track 09: Midi track, input = None, Output = 1st Dim Pro instance
 
For Buses:
 
Lead Vocal bus - Feeds Vocals bus
Backing Vocals bus - Feeds Vocals bus
Vocals Bus - Feeds Master bus
Brass bus - Feeds Master bus
Master Bus - outputs to interface
 
 
The above is purely a made up example of routing choices - you could put things like reverb on the Brass bus, where you might try to simulate the horn section standing a bit to the left and back a ways from the vocalists, etc.  by putting the reverb on the Brass bus, rather than on each of the brass instrument tracks, you save on how much work you are making your computer do, and it is likely that the brass would sound best with a common reverb - since they are likely going to sit in the same place in the mix.
 
You will learn as you go, and it takes reading, watching, trying, and most of all - listening.
 
In the above example, I just wanted to show having different groups of tracks routed differently, so don't read too much into the choices.  :)
 
The one thing you do NOT want to do is to route audio tracks directly to your interface - use one or more buses.
 
Bob Bone
 

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
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#12
_Angus_
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/24 15:48:32 (permalink)
robert_e_bone
 
You will learn as you go, and it takes reading, watching, trying, and most of all - listening.




I appreciate that, thanks for your trouble.
 
Fiddling around just now with Sonar, and I was unable to display the on board Realtek sound in Preferences. I appreciate I would not normally want to use it, but now I'm confused as to why it is no longer visible within Sonar.
 
Why is it not visible?
 

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robert_e_bone
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/24 18:17:35 (permalink)
If you have your driver mode set to ASIO, it will not show up, because it will only display drivers that support ASIO.
 
If you really want to point to your on-board sound in Sonar (which I don't recommend), then you either have to remove the checks for your audio interface and then change driver mode to WDM, or you have to first change the driver mode to WDM - it has been soooo long since I have specified anything but ASIO I just don't remember which way you do it.  But one of those two ways should do it (although again I don't recommend it).
 
Sorry my brain got as old as the rest of me, 
 
I normally have Sonar and other high-end music applications the only things that access ASIO and the audio interface, and I have my Windows default audio device set to the on-board sound.
 
That way, I can have the best of both worlds.  I don't ever have conflicts between applications trying to get at the ASIO drivers of the audio interface, and I can play songs in Windows Media Player or YouTube at the same time I am working in Sonar.
 
Bob Bone
 

Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!"
 
Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) 
Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22
Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64
Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others
MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es
Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms  
#14
_Angus_
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/25 11:07:24 (permalink)
robert_e_bone
 
I normally have Sonar and other high-end music applications the only things that access ASIO and the audio interface, and I have my Windows default audio device set to the on-board sound.
 
That way, I can have the best of both worlds.  I don't ever have conflicts between applications trying to get at the ASIO drivers of the audio interface,



Yes, thanks again, that's what I've been doing too. Its just that in my recent attempt to record sound from a website, Audacity was using the  Audiophile card as input and was monitoring it with the onboard sound (I think) ...this was with me choosing the Audiophile in Windows as the default device I believe. Anyway it all worked, and I was quite impressed. My pathetic fiddlings with the fantastic Sonar's ins and outs were unsuccessful, although I could see the sound on the meters I couldn't record it. I assume this is me being "inexperienced" in these matters.  :)
 
If you'll forgive me, on a side issue, if anybody out there likes the guitarist Peter Green, even as a huge fan, I was quite unaware of how good his life stuff with John Mayall was, before he formed Fleetwood Mac in 1967. He had to replace Clapton, who at the time was "god" and  for my money, Peter showed he was up to the task. I mean, wow.
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqptc-vxXLc
 
 
 

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#15
Anderton
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/25 11:48:02 (permalink)
You'll probably find this article very helpful. Actually there's a lot of useful info in the Cakewalk blog, it's just hard to find.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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scook
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/25 12:26:36 (permalink)
Thanks for the link to the "Know Your Signal Flow in SONAR" Blog entry. It covers missing parts in the signal flow diagram.
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Ricebug
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Re: the basic "plumbing of tracks, the master track, inputs outputs - I know nothing it se 2014/06/27 03:05:16 (permalink)
Using templates can ease the burden on how to route various signals. I found this a great help.
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