Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example

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cpkoch
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2014/06/25 21:15:15 (permalink)

Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example

I start out with two identical piano MIDI tracks.  I  split them such so the first verse is on Track 1 ... the second verse on Track 3 the third on track 1 again.  I want to change the instrument on Track 3 from a piano to (let's say) an oboe so it plays back the second verse as an oboe and then reverts to a piano for the third verse. I have the tracks outputted to the TTS-1 Soft Synth.  Help!!  I can not seem to figure out how to get the third track to play back in an oboe'esque manner!
10 minutes later
Got it figured out!

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    dlion16
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/26 08:47:35 (permalink)
    guess you found out you needed another instance of tts-1.

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    #2
    cpkoch
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/26 10:57:43 (permalink)
    dlion16
    guess you found out you needed another instance of tts-1.
     

    Actually the solution I found appeared to be a temporary one. I used only one TTS-1 and assigned the Midi Channel ( for track three for example) to Cakewalk Midi Channel 3.  Then, while play back was active (and only while active), I assigned the bank to play an oboe (for example) instrument and an oboe is what I heard!  Once the track had run its course the "oboe" reverted to a piano instrument. This remains a mystery to me.  However, your note suggests that If I dedicate a TTS-1 Soft Synth to Channel 3 the Oboe instrument will remain.  I'll try that! 
     

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    #3
    tacman7
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/26 11:22:49 (permalink)
    If you use the inspector to send program changes to  your synth, it will change but if your midi has embedded program changes in it, it will revert when you rewind and hit that PC message.
     
    You can strip it out, find it in list view, or change it to what you want.
     
    You can usually embed the new PC, have to look that one up though, I'm not that up on X3
     
     
    #4
    rcrees
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/26 12:54:34 (permalink)
    dlion16
    guess you found out you needed another instance of tts-1.


    Yes, i think the easiest solution is to just add another instance of tts-1 for each instrument.  You don't need to add a third track for your second piano verse, all the piano can be on one track.


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    ...wicked
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/26 13:45:23 (permalink)
    Yah, TTS-1 has 16 channels you can assign to anything that's in it's patch library (which I think is GM2). 
     
    I use it all the time as a piano patch on ch1 for writing, and an oboe patch on ch2 which I use for vocal melodies. 

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    John
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/26 15:08:34 (permalink)
    Why would anyone use multiple TTS-1s to do a simple thing like polyphony? TTS-1 is polyphonic. That is what channels are for.
     
    Yes TTS-1 is GM2. It is based on the Roland Sound Canvas. Anything that plays well on a Sound Canvas will also play well on the TTS-1.
     
    You can insert a program change with the List view.

    Best
    John
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    cpkoch
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/27 12:07:29 (permalink)
    John
    Why would anyone use multiple TTS-1s to do a simple thing like polyphony? TTS-1 is polyphonic. That is what channels are for.

    How does one prevent a track whose instrument has been changed from defaulting to its original setting e.g., from piano to oboe and reverting to piano.  Logic suggests that it should not revert but techno-logic suggests that somehow that is what must happen.  Of course I may be doing something wrong! 
    post edited by cpkoch - 2014/06/28 23:00:20

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    #8
    Beepster
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/27 12:18:40 (permalink)
    Okay... I'm not MIDI/synth guy but couldn't you just use the same instance of TTS-1, use the Cut edit option for the section you want the oboe for, paste it into a new Simple Instrument Track (or MIDI/audio pair) and set that track to feed the appropriate channel for the oboe sound?
     
    Seems like that would be preferable for mixing purposes anyway. An oboe is not something you want to mix/apply effects to like a piano.
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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/27 12:23:54 (permalink)
    You only need one instance of TTS-1 per 16 channles of MIDI.
    You can go to the TTS-1 GUI and right click the channels to change the instruments or use the track inspector.
    You will need to take each track and change it's channel.  Don't forget CH10 is for drums.
    If this is not your own midi track and you have downloaded it off the internet, it may have a PG imbedded in the file.
    Look in the event list first. Toggle the notes off for a quick overview of other data. But Sonar often hides this data and it doesn't always show on the list. 
    My only solution so far is to open the MIDI file in another midi sequencer ( Cubase) and remove this hidden data there. It seems to be a Sonar Bug to hide this PG change data from the event list where it belongs.
     
    Sometimes slip editing the start of the track to a hair before the first midi note will stop the PG from triggering the change. But this won't work if the PG is in the middle of the song.
     
     
    If the track is a download and it keeps reverting to an oboe it will not matter how many versions of TTs-1 you use, they will all revert. I guess it's possible for you to have somehow put the PG info in your own track, but this has never happened for me, it's always a download file.

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    John
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/27 17:22:47 (permalink)
    cpkoch
    John
    Why would anyone use multiple TTS-1s to do a simple thing like polyphony? TTS-1 is polyphonic. That is what channels are for.

    How does one prevent a track whose instrument has been changed from defaulting to its original setting e.g., from piano to oboe and reverting to piano.  Logic suggests that it should not revert but techno-logic suggests that somehow that is what must happen.  Of course I mat be doing something wrong! 


    In Standard MIDI files there are Program Changes. These tell a GM synth what patch to play. They can be on a track at various locations to effectively make that track work to trigger many instruments one after another as needed. We don't do this when we create for our own use. Its simpler and for most non GM synths to have each track work for only one instrument. If you use the TTS-1 synth it will recognize Program Changes. This one way to use the 16 channels of a GM to sound as if it has a lot more.  

    Best
    John
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    John
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/27 17:36:58 (permalink)
    Beepster
    Okay... I'm not MIDI/synth guy but couldn't you just use the same instance of TTS-1, use the Cut edit option for the section you want the oboe for, paste it into a new Simple Instrument Track (or MIDI/audio pair) and set that track to feed the appropriate channel for the oboe sound?
     
    Seems like that would be preferable for mixing purposes anyway. An oboe is not something you want to mix/apply effects to like a piano.


    First off don't use a simple instrument track for the TTS-1. Its a polyphonic synth that can have 4 audio outs. 


     
     

    Best
    John
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    cpkoch
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/28 23:29:48 (permalink)
    I am trying to digest what you folks are suggesting and I am beginning to understand.  If I do what I think Beepster suggests  and place each midi track in its own Instrument (Soft Synth) track  ... whether it be TTS-1 1 or TTS-1 6 or  SI Pianos  ... the issue of reverting goes away.  
     
    I am not "up" enough on Midi construction to really understand the placement of a Program Change (Is it the same thing as a "PG")  in a MIDI track but as  John suggests, that is probably causing the reversion. So far I have been downloading MIDIs as opposed to constructing my own.  I need to learn what a Program Change is while getting more up to speed on the Event List to see if it is there or not!  
     
    Beepster
     An oboe is not something you want to mix/apply effects to like a piano.


      By the way, I have no real interest in creating an Oboe sound out of a piano track.  I used the instrument ... the oboe ... only as an example.  
    post edited by cpkoch - 2014/06/29 09:46:01

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    #13
    Cactus Music
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    Re: Midi Track Conversions From Piano to Oboe for example 2014/06/29 00:51:14 (permalink)
    Yes look there first but I'm not optimistic. There's a bunch of us here who work with these downloads all the time so trust me. If that PG is hidden by Sonar you'll be hooped and will have to open the file in another DAW or even a simple midi sequencer to delete it. 
     
    And if the piano is changing to an oboe in the same track there are PG changes in the middle of the song. 
    Once you get rid of those PG changes the file will behave normally and you will be able to get on with Chapter 2 of Johnny's Idiot guide to downloaded midi files. 
     
    For one I shut down all those kind of changes. Midi oboe is terrible sound and to be avoided to by anyone with pets in the house. 
    When you get better at this you'll be able to wield that track into something way better than the original. 

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