cpkoch
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Key Change Within a Composition
I am trying to do a half step key/scale change for the second verse of a song I am recording. I recorded it in a single key. I've looked at AND FOLLOWED the Insert Meter/Key Change help topics and it was No Help At All. It simply yields the same notes only apparently in a different key. I want to change all the notes by moving them up a half step on the scale. I can do it using Melodyne; but, it seems to me there must be a simpler method. Is there? If so I'd welcome the help in my understanding how to do it.
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mettelus
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 04:23:32
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Hi Conrad, just to be clear, are you talking about a key change or transposition? "I want to change all the notes by moving them up a half step on the scale" is a transpose function (assuming I interpreted you correctly). I am not sure if this is MIDI or Audio, but the simplest method would be to use the Process->Transpose. If you choose to transpose audio (checkbox), the algorithm options pop up (dropdowns below that checkbox). You can play with these to see which suits your needs best. If audio, you will need to split clips so you can select only the second verse as an individual clip, then choose the "Process->Transpose" Please be sure to save the project as a new name when messing around with new things so you can always go back to where you were if you do not like it.
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cpkoch
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 10:17:43
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For whatever the reason the Audio clip did not seem to respond the the Transpose function. I split the verse leaving it on the original track; but, as I recall, the entire track was transposed. Perhaps the term "splitting" the verses means I should actually place them on separate tracks. I shall try it again!
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 10:35:35
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I thought that 'Transpose' in Sonar was a midi function, that alters the note numbers up or down, and that it would not affect audio. (Perhaps I am wrong about that - I never use the function so have no real clue one way or the other).
I believe you can do this with either V-Vocal or Melodyne. If doing with V-Vocal, I believe there may be issues if you do too big a selection of clip at a time - at least it used to fail if too big a clip was done at once. So, with V-Vocal, I recall doing small chunks at a time.
I believe Melodyne has the same sort of functionality available, and if you are moving an that small an interval (1 half or 1 whole step), then I don't think it will create many (if any) noticeable artificats.
I would consult the documentation or find some YouTube videos on either of the above.
I use the Key Signature change function just to keep things represented in the correct key, if midi tracks get sent to something like Finale for printing scores and such.
Hope any of the above helps,
Bob Bone
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cpkoch
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 11:15:28
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☄ Helpfulby Larry Jones 2014/07/26 02:45:10
Thanks Bob! Just for clarification I have used the Transpose function many many times to modify audio tracks that are within my vocal range. What I am trying to figure out is whether or not the function works on "clips" within a track.
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mettelus
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 11:56:21
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I have never used it other than to play around. It is possible that the process affects the entire track rather than a selected clip. If that is true, you can still split the clip to isolate the verse and then shift-drag it to another track (to preserve timing). Once transposed to your liking, I would bounce that to clip (not sure if necessary, but won't hurt), then shift-drag it back to where it came from to keep effects in one track.Again, I am not sure if that is needed, as I thought the process works on a selected clip. If that workaround is required, I would be more prone to use Melodyne. I will test this when I am back at my DAW. EDIT: The process can be applied to only selected clips. Will add a new comment to the thread.
post edited by mettelus - 2014/07/21 19:10:27
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stevec
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 13:51:29
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cpkoch
Thanks Bob! Just for clarification I have used the Transpose function many many times to modify audio tracks that are within my vocal range. What I am trying to figure out is whether or not the function works on "clips" within a track.
I'm not sure if any of the Track based parameters can affect only a single clip out of many.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 13:56:13
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SONAR_X3_Reference_Guide.pdf p. 758
You can transpose audio clips using Process Transpose, but the process is limited to half steps, and does not recognize the diatonic math feature that works with MIDI. So audio transposition will not follow the key signature. But if you just want to raise all the notes in the clip by the same specific number of half steps it should do that without a problem, which is what is sounds like you need to do.
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Anderton
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 15:18:46
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Confirmed. I use audio pitch transposition on clips all the time, even on little ones like individual snare hits to add some variety to drum sounds.
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Sidroe
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 15:31:24
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V-Vocal only works on MONO audio tracks. Also, Melodyne Essentials, that came with X3 only works on Mono audio tracks. If you are trying to transpose audio tracks that have chords in them you will have to have the full version of Melodyne. The Transpose feature is MIDI only.
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Anderton
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 16:22:31
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Sonar's Transpose function works fine with audio. Select the clip, then go Process > Transpose. Just make sure that "Transpose Audio" is checked, enter the desired amount of transposition in semitones, and choose the desired transposition algorithm (e.g., Radius Mix). This does offline processing, and the algorithm quality (by iZotope) is very good for reasonable transposition amounts.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 18:02:06
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WOW - thankfully I put in a disclaimer for my earlier post. I had NO idea that worked for audio. I STILL should have known better - will try to avoid that in the future.
I am SOOOO sorry for any confusion that may have caused,
Bob Bone
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mettelus
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 19:30:15
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Hi Conrad, I want to confirm that the work around I posted (post #6 above) is not required. I just opened a stereo vocal track, split the second phrase out of it, and shifted it up by 5 semitones; and only that clip was affected, not the entire track. This can also be done to multiple selected clips. Steps to transpose this way are: 1) Right click on the audio clip you want to transpose, and "Split..." on either end to isolate the phrase(s) to be transposed. CTRL-click will select multiple clips if desired. 2) Ensure only the clip(s) you wish to transpose are the only ones selected. Caveate: Once Process->Transpose is used, X3 remembers the transpose settings from one clip to the next, so if you cannot easily see multiple clips in the track view, is less confusing to process them one after the other. 3) Process->Transpose - I used "Transpose Audio," Type "Radius Mix-Advanced," and chose 5 semitones. (I chose phrase 2 and phrase 4 for a second test to confirm will process multiple clips as well, and worked fine.) 4) Verify the transposition is to your liking, if not undo (Ctrl-Z) and retry Step 3 as needed. My apologies if I confused anyone with that workaround in Post #6! Again, it is not required. @Bob - LOL... notice I didn't make a comment about that... my effort to be "politically correct"  Edit: As a funny aside... the "Amount" field accepts a -127 to +127 value (guess it is a byte), but will only process 24 semitones (still extreme, but now I can sing Alvin and the Chipmunks tunes! LOL).
post edited by mettelus - 2014/07/21 19:39:38
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cpkoch
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 20:11:42
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robert_e_bone
I am SOOOO sorry for any confusion that may have caused,
Bob Bone
I suspect and hope hope you are being sardonic; but, if not let me assure you that absolutely no confusion was encountered. On the contrary, your post was very much appreciated. Like a very wise man once asserted ... "Wisdom is a giant accumulation of 'DOH!'"
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/21 21:58:44
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Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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stevec
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/22 10:32:25
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cpkoch
...Like a very wise man once asserted ... "Wisdom is a giant accumulation of 'DOH!'"
I may have to use that line at some point in the future...
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cpkoch
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/22 13:27:43
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mettelus
Hi Conrad, I want to confirm that the work around I posted (post #6 above) is not required. I just opened a stereo vocal track, split the second phrase out of it, and shifted it up by 5 semitones; and only that clip was affected, not the entire track. This can also be done to multiple selected clips.
My Sonar X3 Producer system has been acting strangely. - The time marker cursor that normally runs smoothly along the track was doing a random stop and go routine.
- The "right-hand" click to bring up Melodyne tools was very very slow to respond
- and a few other idiosyncrasies were plaguing my work
In any event, I shut down the entire system and brought up the a'capella vocal piece I'm working on, "16 Tons ... In Blue" and tried once again to isolate clips. Then "one at a time" I transposed them as you suggested Mike. It worked!!! Perhaps earlier attempts to do the transposition were ones for which I tried to transpose multiple clips at a time. By the way ... Thanks to you and all who have posted on the matter!
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Anderton
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/22 13:52:56
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You should be able to select and transpose multiple clips, I do it often. However, transposition is a processor-intensive operation so doing multiple long clips can take a while.
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cpkoch
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/22 15:54:04
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I'll give it another go tonight! Maybe it is just that my patience needs to be extended  .
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mettelus
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/23 02:14:40
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☄ Helpfulby Angelbaby 2014/07/23 03:32:06
cpkoch
Maybe it is just that my patience needs to be extended.
Nah... you just dove into the deep end of the pool and have chosen some very aggressive goals for yourself. You are tackling a lot of new areas all at once and also enticed by all of the "goodies" technology provides. I am of the camp that simplicity is truly elegant, and as time is the most important factor of life, simple carries even more weight. Including some feedback from other threads (song work) here, I would recommend focusing on your natural voice (as it is truly excellent), avoid "over-use" of Melodyne, and keep effects used to a minimum. When a singer has a great voice, the music takes "second fiddle" and vice versa. Melodyne has given you enticement on "playing with technology," but as stated in another thread, even harmonies in your range should be done with your natural voice. Use Melodyne sparingly, and if "excessive time" is invested in conducting major surgery, consider simply retaking the track (why invest 2 hours on surgery when a second take is 3-5 minutes?). Also, depending on proficiency with such tools (and knowing how they work best) such surgery may actually introduce negative results (reaffirming a comment from another thread here). Relying on such also removes "forcing yourself to improve"... and there is a big difference between the mindset of "Oh, Melodyne can fix that (at home)," and walking out the door to perform with nothing but your favorite dynamic mic in your pocket. Bottom line, with a DAW tools abound, yet I would urge you to place focus on your natural voice and bring it to the fore of music you create. Edit: Grammar
post edited by mettelus - 2014/07/23 09:40:13
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/23 10:49:00
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What kind of name is 'Edit Grammar'? (I could see maybe Punctuation, Mark)
Sounds foreign - you from around here?
:)
Bob Bone
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RexRed
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/23 12:50:45
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V-vocal allows you to raise or lower the formant, so by splitting tracks into mono transposing and then bringing them into v-vocal you can get a more realistic transpose in some cases where it is needed.
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Anderton
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/23 13:46:00
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RexRed
V-vocal allows you to raise or lower the formant, so by splitting tracks into mono transposing and then bringing them into v-vocal you can get a more realistic transpose in some cases where it is needed.
FYI Melodyne Editor version has a formant tool as well. The minus compared to V-Vocal is it's not a pencil tool so you can't change formant in the middle of a blob without splitting the blob. The plus is that you can hear the difference it makes in real time as you change, so you don't have to draw, listen, draw, listen, etc.
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Anderton
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/23 13:49:37
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mettelus
Bottom line, with a DAW tools abound, yet I would urge you to place focus on your natural voice and bring it to the fore of music you create.
True, but there's a lot you can do to the sounds that aren't in the fore. For example when doing background vocals I often change the formant so my voice has a different timbre. It's still my voice and my expressiveness, but it "opens up" the background vocals so they don't fall into the same range as the lead vocal. The other advantage of knowing "fix it" tools well is so that if a vocal is really, really good except for some glitch, you can fix just that one glitch. When pitch correction is used to correct for lousy pitch, it usually doesn't end well, for all the reasons you describe. But it can be a very exciting creative tool.
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mettelus
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Re: Key Change Within a Composition
2014/07/23 20:28:09
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robert_e_bone
What kind of name is 'Edit Grammar'? (I could see maybe Punctuation, Mark)
Sounds foreign - you from around here?
:)
Bob Bone
LOL... Yawohl! Aber ich kann nicht sehr gut schreiben 
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