MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days?

Author
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 31918
  • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
  • Status: offline
2014/07/26 22:39:05 (permalink)

MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days?

I was looking at the 24 I/O and the various retailer webpages just switched from listing current prices to describing it as no longer available.
 
The MOTU web site has been changed so that it no longer has a current "PCI Audio" category.
 
Crazy times.


#1

19 Replies Related Threads

    Sycraft
    Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 871
    • Joined: 2012/05/04 21:06:10
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/27 01:10:26 (permalink)
    I'm not hugely surprised. As I noted in the other thread, they are kinda Mactarded. Well PCIe is gone from Macs. You can't get it in iMacs, but now you can't get it in the new Mac Pro either. Some companies would say "Oh well, silly decision by Apple, we'll keep making it for PCs." MOTU seems to have said "We follow whatever Apple does! No PCIe!"
     
    That said it isn't as big a deal these days, modern processors can do pretty low latency over USB, particularly USB 3 if implemented properly. Still though, PCIe is nice because it is the system's actual bus. For that matter if you don't use a discrete graphics card you can stick a card in the 16x video slot, which hangs right off the processor and doesn't even go through the southbridge.
     
    Something you could also look at is Focusrite's RedNet stuff. I dunno what it costs, but I've liked my Focusrite interface. The Net card hangs right off the PCIe bus, of course, and ethernet is exceedingly low latency (packet latency is around 100 microseconds on most networks, and that is with all the TCP overhead, which you wouldn't have with their audio only system. It should add a totally negligible amount of latency over the converters and buffers.
    #2
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/27 08:03:03 (permalink)
    Sycraft
    That said it isn't as big a deal these days, modern processors can do pretty low latency over USB, particularly USB 3 if implemented properly. 



    I think it is this idea that is going to leave us hanging without the good solutions we use to have.
     
    There are no companies offering a 24 analog I/O that runs at 64 sample buffers over USB.
     
    No one offers 24 channels of 24bit 96kHz over USB at low latency.
     
    The USB stuff seems great until you want to use it too outperform what you could do with PCI and then you find out no when has pulled that off yet.
     
    I am su****ious of USB as a long term audio bus solution because I have concerns that my system is using all sorts of other stuff as USB and the juggling of priorities must be a nightmare and I can't see it getting any less so.
     
    It's not like my querty keyboard, MIDI stuff, or E-licensing is being updated to run on PCI-e to make room on the USB bus for uninterrupted audio streaming.
     
    I think the USB audio "revolution" is being fueled by optimism and the fact that usb appliances are cheaper to make than any other choice the manufacturers have.
     
    Sycraft
    I'm not hugely surprised. As I noted in the other thread, they are kinda Mactarded.

     
    I was looking at the Apogee stuff for a short while until I figured out that they don't even pretend to support Windows. :-S
     
     
     
    post edited by mike_mccue - 2014/07/27 08:09:24


    #3
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/27 08:31:55 (permalink)
    The new MADIface XT USB seems to be a fairly new exception to what I have said above about 24 channels of 24/96 I/O...
     
    ... but it looks like another $10k solution.
     
    $2695 USB MADI I/O.
     
    $5000 - $7500 for analog to MADI gear.
     
     


    #4
    Sycraft
    Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 871
    • Joined: 2012/05/04 21:06:10
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/27 09:18:48 (permalink)
    RME charges a ton because they can, I think. They seem to be way better at hardware and software than most pro companies. They do better USB implementation, write better drivers, and hence get great performance. So, they charge a ton.
     
    The reason I'm optimistic that USB may improve in the future is USB3. For one thing it just has more bandwidth which means more audio channels, but also lower latency. The faster your bus, the quicker you can transfer data and thus lower latency. Equally important is it can do DMA, Direct Memory Access. This means the device can write data right in to RAM (as PCIe and Firewire devices can) bypassing the processor. This leads to lower system load and of course lower latency. Finally it is full duplex, which means no contention when doing simultaneous IO.
     
    Now for any of that to matter we need companies to support USB3, a USB2 device doesn't get any better plugged in to a 3 port, and we also need companies to do a USB3 implementation that doesn't suck. Audio companies are not so great at that whole "not sucking" part so it could be awhile.
     
    As I said, maybe look at the Focusrite Rednet stuff. Another option could be three RME Multiface IIs. RME gear can run multiple units in a system and sync. That'd get you 24 analogue IO, plus another 24 ADAT. Doesn't support their newest Totalmix FX stuff, though that is supposedly being ported to it, but without all the effects (since it lacks the DSP for them). Not cheap but $3k instead of $10k. You would need 3 PCIe slots though.
    #5
    Sidroe
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1954
    • Joined: 2010/11/10 18:59:43
    • Location: Macon,Georgia
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/27 09:36:51 (permalink)
    I used the 24IO for years with great success! Sadly, I had to move up to something that had more sync capabilities. It really broke my heart to retire it. I ended up making the investment in to 2 Studio-Captures. I am very pleased with the results I've been getting with them. I was afraid I was going to have to give up the low latency of the 24IO but the Studios have matched it bit for bit so far. Still, I am tempted to pickup a PCI-E card somewhere.

    Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
    #6
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/27 09:44:46 (permalink)
    Thanks for mentioning the RedNet. I didn't know about it, so I just went and checked it out.
     
    FWIW 24 analog channels of RedNet I/O costs about $7k.
     
    RedNet 2 at $3k
    Rednet 1 at $2k
    Rednet to PCI-e at $1k
    DB25 breakouts at $1k
     
    The discontinued MOTU 24 I/O at $1.5k is looking better and better. :-)


    #7
    TomHelvey
    Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 537
    • Joined: 2013/02/26 20:23:54
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/27 13:52:28 (permalink)
    The new MOTU stuff uses thunderbolt, you can get a thunderbolt PCI card for around $150.
    Why not just go that route?

    System: i7-6900, 64Gb, AMI X99 Carbon Pro Gaming, AMD Radeon HD 7700, Win 10 Pro
    PCIe: UAD Octo
    USB: MOTU midi express 128, OB-6 Module, Akai MPK-249, Moog SUB 37, Antelope Orion 32 HD, Softube Console 1, iLok, eLicenser
    DAW: Cubase Pro, Ableton Live, Sonar Platinum
    Plugins: Waves, UAD, Xfer, Lennar Digital, u-he, Reveal Sound, Spectrasonics, SoundToys, VPS, Blue Cat, iZotope, NI, Valhalla, Lexicon, etc.
     
    https://soundcloud.com/thomas-helvey
    #8
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/27 14:09:54 (permalink)
    Re: Post #2
     
    No Windows drivers for MOTU Thunderbolt.
     
    When/If MOTU puts out Windows drivers MOTU says it will be Windows 8 only.
     
    http://www.motu.com/products/avb/16a/specs.html
     
     
    I only put my Win XP machine into semi retirement recently and when I bought my fancy new Win 7 x64 machine last year I was disappointed to learn that the MOTU firewire drivers for Win 7 had close to twice as much latency as the Win XP drivers for the very same hardware.
     
    I don't want to set up a Win 8 machine just to find out if there is an improvement over my old Win XP machine.
     
     
    Progress...
                   ...
                      ... 


    #9
    drewfx1
    Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 6585
    • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/27 14:53:19 (permalink)
    After having a bad experience with my MOTU midi interface many years ago (unbelievably it has functionality that you can access from the front panel but only actually configure to be able to use it from a Mac, and they never ever bothered to add it to the Windows side), I decided I just won't buy from "Mac first" companies for use with Windows.

     In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
    #10
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/27 15:11:15 (permalink)
    Never the less, the MOTU PCI-e gear had some of the very best Windows low latency performance in the industry.
     
     


    #11
    Sycraft
    Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 871
    • Joined: 2012/05/04 21:06:10
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/28 02:28:43 (permalink)
    My only real concern with getting a MOTU unit would be future support. Windows 8.2, or 9, or whatever they call it will be out soon. Things should work fine with that, it is still NT 6 kernel (NT 6.4 in particular). However the next version may make major changes. At that point, new drivers will be needed, and I'd bet a dollar MOTU won't release them.
     
    Maybe not a big deal if you like sticking on older versions of Windows, but there's something to be said for keeping up to date (8.1 is pretty brilliant when it comes to audio performance, and a $5 program fixes the start menu idiocy). Plus if you want to keep you system online it needs to be reasonably up to date since running versions of Windows which are out of support (and thus unpatched) is very risky for an Internet connected computer.
     
    Hence why you might consider the Multiface II option. Twice the price, $3k, and it is also older hardware but RME seems to be real serious about supporting their stuff for a long time. Have to check on the latency but I imagine it'd be great since they are known to have low latency stuff and that hangs off the PCIe bus directly.
     
    On the other hand you can always get the cheapest option that'll work for you today, and hold out hope that in a few years when you wish to upgrade there will be something more suitable. Spend less now so you can upgrade later and not be tied to a given solution for so long.
    #12
    batsbrew
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 10037
    • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
    • Location: SL,UT
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/28 14:55:24 (permalink)
    well, i had my sight set on a motu setup..
     
    now i will not purchase motu.
     
    i use an older PCI card now, and have been very happy with it.
     
    why would i NOT want better latency?

    Bats Brew music Streaming
    Bats Brew albums:
    "Trouble"
    "Stay"
    "The Time is Magic"
    --
    Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
     
    #13
    TomHelvey
    Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 537
    • Joined: 2013/02/26 20:23:54
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/29 05:19:05 (permalink)
    Personally, I'm not too worried about it. My 2408 still works fine and when it craps out I'm going to go with SSL & Madi or RedNet & Dante. Either way it'll be an upgrade. :)
    post edited by TomHelvey - 2014/07/29 05:22:35

    System: i7-6900, 64Gb, AMI X99 Carbon Pro Gaming, AMD Radeon HD 7700, Win 10 Pro
    PCIe: UAD Octo
    USB: MOTU midi express 128, OB-6 Module, Akai MPK-249, Moog SUB 37, Antelope Orion 32 HD, Softube Console 1, iLok, eLicenser
    DAW: Cubase Pro, Ableton Live, Sonar Platinum
    Plugins: Waves, UAD, Xfer, Lennar Digital, u-he, Reveal Sound, Spectrasonics, SoundToys, VPS, Blue Cat, iZotope, NI, Valhalla, Lexicon, etc.
     
    https://soundcloud.com/thomas-helvey
    #14
    jcschild
    Max Output Level: -41 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3409
    • Joined: 2003/11/08 00:20:10
    • Location: Kentucky y'all
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/31 16:34:29 (permalink)
    the PICe units have been MIA for almost 2 yrs now. I was able to get like 6-10 in that time
    out of stock the majority. while Apple may have had a small amount to do with it it really had to do with inability to get the product made (could not source chips for PCB)
     
    willing to bet the TB units will work on windows just like the Apollo does even though they say no.

    Scott
    ADK
    Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
    #15
    jcschild
    Max Output Level: -41 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3409
    • Joined: 2003/11/08 00:20:10
    • Location: Kentucky y'all
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/31 16:37:13 (permalink)
    Hey Mike,
    have you looked at Lynx AES with Aurora or SSL PCIe with converters
    RME UFX and converters
    the converters on the 24 I/o were never that good..

    Scott
    ADK
    Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
    #16
    Sycraft
    Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 871
    • Joined: 2012/05/04 21:06:10
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/07/31 18:46:53 (permalink)
    jcschild
    the PICe units have been MIA for almost 2 yrs now. I was able to get like 6-10 in that time
    out of stock the majority. while Apple may have had a small amount to do with it it really had to do with inability to get the product made (could not source chips for PCB)

     
    I have trouble believing that. If that's what they claim it is likely a lame excuse. I mean if the chip was a custom chip, there are no lack of fabs that'll make it for you. TSMC, Global Foundries, Samsung, etc all will happily fab you chips. You design them, they'll make them. However my bet is that it is just an FPGA. I'm not sure, as all the pictures of their PCI card have a sticker over the chip, but that'd be my bet based on the HDX-SDI I bought from them. When I opened it up, it was naught but some converters and a Xilinx FPGA chip on board. Not uncommon for specialty interfaces. Ok well Xilinx FPGAs are easy as hell to get. They are extremely popular, used in all kinds of devices.
     
    Also it should be noted that I'm not blaming Apple as in Apple called MOTU and said "Hey, no more with the PCI express!" what I'm saying is that MOTU is one of those companies that is fairly enthralled with Apple and thus follows their lead without thinking much about it.
     
    Like take their video interfaces. There's a big market in Windows systems with video interfaces because of things like Twitch.tv. Some of the higher end streamers will use a secondary capture/encoding/streaming system with video capture hardware in it running Xsplit. Pro events will do it too, use Flash Media encoder or the like for streaming on the 'net, and just hook in the capture hardware into their mixer. Well for that, you need Video For Windows support. With that, everything works. Blackmagic Design and Matrox both support that, and advertise how you can use their product with everything popular, including things like Xsplit. MOTU? Nope. Their stuff works with FCP, Premiere, and only more recently Media Composer.
     
    It's not like implementing a VFW driver would be difficult, in fact it is less work than the individual interface stuff for each of those programs. However they haven't done it, despite requests for years, whereas their competitors did from the word go.
     
    It's not like an activist "We are going to support Apple!" stance, rather it is just a cultural thing of being Mac fans. They look at Apple the The Big Thing, and Windows as an afterthought.
    #17
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/08/01 09:26:19 (permalink)
    Thanks for the info Scott,
     
    I guess i assumed that. just because the stuff was still in catalogs that it was actually for sale.
     
    I was thinking about the Lynx 16, but I already have 16 I/O that work ok so I really want to go to 24 (or more) and two Lynx 16s take me to a place where I'll feel foolish business wise. I love dumping money in great analog gear... I hate wasting money on digital gear that turns into waste bin stuff so quickly.
     
    The RME 32 in 16 out and MADI card is even more expensive.
     
    I can't figure out, how companies can dump recent technologies but cling to the ADAT format. I have a love/sneer relationship with it. I find it hard to believe that people have loads of ADAT tapes that they can't transfer with analog rather than ADAT. I do understand why there are so many small format I/O devices but I get frustrated looking at so many hi channel count units that only have 8 analog I/O. Once you sift through the choices there aren't many affordable choices left. A pair of MOTU 192HD with the XLR connections would have made a great replacement for my pair of 896HDs... but of course they have a reputation for the noisy fans. :-) Oh Well. It looks like I'm going to need a mess of cable modifications when/if I do anything.
     
    If Lynx had a 24 I/O in one box I would probably do that.
     
    The SSL 32 I/O with MADI seems like the next likely contender for me.
     
    I'm going to want to find out what the actual measured round trip latency on something like that is before I get too serious. I assume it's good, but I have learned the hard way that you can not assume anything. :-)
     
    Thanks again for your insights.
     


    #18
    The Maillard Reaction
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 31918
    • Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/08/01 09:27:57 (permalink)
    Thanks Jesse.


    #19
    jcschild
    Max Output Level: -41 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3409
    • Joined: 2003/11/08 00:20:10
    • Location: Kentucky y'all
    • Status: offline
    Re: MOTU discontinues Audio PCI-E gear in the past few days? 2014/08/01 14:46:18 (permalink)
    also look at Ferrofish for converters if you want some help and answers on lactency converter quality ping me (at work not here)
     

    Scott
    ADK
    Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
    #20
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1