Helpful ReplyUninterruptible Power Supply

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Bristol_Jonesey
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2014/07/27 16:59:00 (permalink)

Uninterruptible Power Supply

Any recommendations from UK users?
 
I'm in the middle of building a new studio desk and want a new UPS to sit behind desk and not make itself heard.
 
Also, I've read about several models which connect to a computer via USB and will "safely shut computer down in case of power failure".
Are there any possibilities of audio dropouts and/or glitches if the UPS is constantly monitoring status?
 
Thanks,
Jonesey
 

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Sycraft
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/28 02:19:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bristol_Jonesey 2014/07/29 10:42:07
No they don't really do anything themselves unless you install their software, which you shouldn't. What they do is report to Windows as a battery. Windows then manages power as it does with any other battery powered device like a laptop. So if it is on battery and getting low, it'll shut down.
 
APC units tend to be the highest quality, but they are amazingly expensive. Tripplite is a good alternative that is less. So long as it is just computer stuff plugged in, any that are large enough to satisfy the demand are fine. If you need audio stuff plugged in, you'll need a sinewave converter. Those are very expensive from Tripplite and APC. Cyberpower makes a cheap sinewave unit that has really good output, however their quality control is not up to the standards of the other two in my experience (that said, I do personally have a Cyberpower unit right now).
 
Any line-interactive unit should be completely silent unless in actual operation. When there is line power, they directly feed power tot eh outputs, no conversion hence no noise.
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 07:04:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bristol_Jonesey 2014/07/29 10:42:17
Sycraft
If you need audio stuff plugged in, you'll need a sinewave converter. Those are very expensive from Tripplite and APC. Cyberpower makes a cheap sinewave unit that has really good output, however their quality control is not up to the standards of the other two in my experience (that said, I do personally have a Cyberpower unit right now).



To clarify, Sycraft is referring to a UPS unit with a "pure sine wave" output, as opposed to a "modified sine wave" output.  The latter is what most units have, as this is cheaper circuitry.  A modified sine wave is basically a stepped square wave.  This can introduce harmonics and noise into audio circuitry.  However...here's the catch: if the audio device gets its power from a switching power supply, then it should be fine; little to no noise should be introduced.
 
Now keep this in mind also in regards to a modified-sine wave type: the UPS unit only outputs this while on battery power (if a type that transfers once wall power is lost rather than remain online). Therefore, even if there is noise introduced into audio electronics while on battery power, you shouldn't be recording anyway! The UPS, for most people, provides emergency protection and time to stop what you're doing and save your work, then shut down your computer. It also allows for modern synthesizers to finish an OS update, for example, and not brick.
 
Now if you have super-duper, high-end stuff (or vintage analog gear) and worry about the modified sine wave, then by all means get one with a pure sine output. You've already invested thousands of dollars into your gear, so don't be a cheapskate!  Also, be sure your PC's power supply is compatible with modified sine waves. Some brands will shut down instantly!
 
Believe me, I've thought about this...maybe a little too much!  However, I still have not yet pulled the trigger on a UPS unit! Most, if not all, of my gear gets its power from either wall, desktop, or internal switching-type power supplies.  I've been eyeballing Cyberpower and APC 1500VA units.  A $35 difference exists between the two.  While Cyberpower gets favorable reviews, APC is the more "known" brand.
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dstrenz
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 08:18:32 (permalink)
I have the smaller brick-like APC units hooked up to two computers and a Cyberpower 1500va unit on a cnc router, connected to the controller, motors, and computer. I chose the Cyberpower over the apc because it has readouts of the power being drawn. It was interesting to see how much the power coming into the house fluctuates. The Cyberpower been working fine for 3yrs, but had to replace a battery on one of the APC bricks. Last year there was a short power dropout (less than 1 second) while the cnc was running. The lights flashed and I heard the router (not connected to the ups) start to spin down then up again. Checked the job afterwards and it didn't lose a step. I imagine that could have caused problems with a computer running without a ups, especially if it was writing to disc.

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 08:50:35 (permalink)
Great stuff people!!
 
Any comments about acoustic noise from any of the models mentioned so far?
 
This seems to be the one parameter that most manufacturers seem to leave out of the spec sheet.
I guess it's not a big enough selling point for the vast majority.
 
Thanks for your input

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 09:10:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bristol_Jonesey 2014/07/29 10:42:35
I have everything on UPS.  I don't want to be in the middle of a recording session and get a power blip or short outage. A prolonged AC power outage is different.  I have a Cyber Power UPS.
 
Along with providing backup AC power, either doing a momentary power drop or a very short power outage, UPS systems also function as surge protectors and some even do some power line noise filtering. 
 
Most (all that I've seen) new PC's have "Active PFC" type power supplies (required by the EU for about 5 or 6 years) and these, in most cases, require a "pure sine wave" UPS output when on backup (battery). 
 
I don't have any problems with the fan in my UPS.  There is no problem connecting it to the PC for the Windows/PC power management.  You can set it for how long to stay on battery during a prolonged power outage (e.g. 10 minutes or whatever capacity the UPS has).  This function does not interfere with or have any bearing on the recording program other than to do an "orderly" Windows/PC shut down if it gets to that point.  Without the "orderly" shutdown, if you have a power outage and the PC is running or in the middle of something there is a very good chance the hard drive(s) can be corrupted, in addition to the potential for hardware damage. 
 
In addition to my PC/recording studio, I also have a UPS on my LCD HD TV to protect against AC power issues.   

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azslow3
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 10:08:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bristol_Jonesey 2014/07/29 10:42:46
I am not from music world, but after many years in science labs where power cuts are more or less regular, I am skeptical about all such units.
 
I must admit that these units really protect against  strange glitches on input power. I can remember: 400-500V spikes, regular drops (for several msecs every 2 seconds), hi frequency "injections" and continuous "under voltage". Each such accident has killed at least several devices, but I can not remember any damaged device behind UPS.
 
But in complicated environment once the power was down at least something always went down immediately, even including big disk arrays with build-in battery connected to external expensive UPS. Typical problems was:
  • the battery in all such units aging really fast, it should be replaced every 2 years, sometimes less
  • not every device survive the switch time without rebooting
  • this equipment is very sensitive to overheating
  • these devices can break themselves
  • (may be most important!) depending on local rules, it can be forbidden to use such units because of fire team prescription. In case you see "Emergency power off" button somewhere in the building, that is normally the case (since UPS will "ignore" such buttons). For private places with insurance in case of fire, that also can trigger unexpected conversations once used...
At the same time, there was no cases when I had nonrecoverable corrupted file system after unexpected computer power off. Currently opened files are normally corrupted, but the rest is ok. It is by design of modern file systems (used by Windows NTFS, while not the best in that respect, still has that protection). The data are written in "transactions", so in case at some point the disk is down, it is possible to find which operation was unfinished and return to the last known point.

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dstrenz
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 10:46:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bristol_Jonesey 2014/07/29 10:42:50
Bristol_Jonesey
Any comments about acoustic noise from any of the models mentioned so far?
 
This seems to be the one parameter that most manufacturers seem to leave out of the spec sheet.
I guess it's not a big enough selling point for the vast majority.

 
You mean acoustical noise like from a fan? There is none. They're totally silent until the battery is going dead. Then it beeps every few seconds until you replace it.
 
Edit: I forgot to mention, if power goes out or you pull the plug it also beeps every 10 seconds or so to warn you about the power problem so you can shut stuff down.
post edited by dstrenz - 2014/07/29 10:52:06

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 10:56:03 (permalink)
Anyone had any experience with the Eaton Ellipse range?

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 11:48:16 (permalink)
It's strange, we have an APC Smart UPS 1500 protecting our server at work, and it's as noisy as hell!!
I can hear it from 3 rooms away, albeit when all other machines are switched off, but you couldn't record in the same room as this thing.
 
 

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 12:20:26 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
It's strange, we have an APC Smart UPS 1500 protecting our server at work, and it's as noisy as hell!!
I can hear it from 3 rooms away, albeit when all other machines are switched off, but you couldn't record in the same room as this thing.

http://forums.apc.com/thread/3899
 
My servers plus cooling are helicopter like, I think power UPS producer do not care about noise of that reason... I wish you find some "music care" one

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 13:09:14 (permalink)
I have an older APC Back-ups RS 1500 and it does not make any noise at all unless the power goes out. Then it does beep but you can turn that off. It will keep my laptop, router, & cable modem up for a solid hour + when I lose power.

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 13:34:10 (permalink)
I owned an APC a few years ago that was very quiet - I kept it in my home studio room and the computer fans were a bigger noise problem than the APC. 
 
In server rooms where I have worked, the UPS units there were always much noisier than the unit I had at home, even units with comparable power. I would bet that there are still some units that are quieter than others.
 
When I setup my APC unit I tested the switch-over time - I never had a computer re-boot or lose data during the switch-over, but I imagine that some units are better at this than others.  

  
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 14:13:47 (permalink)
This model:
 
http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR1200GI&tab=models
  
"Audible noise at 1 meter from surface of unit 45dBA"
 
If this is located behind my desk, do you reckon I can get away with that level of noise?

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scook
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 14:15:46 (permalink)
I have owned noisy and quiet APC units. My current unit is an older very quiet XS 1300. Never installed the monitoring software because I do not like to install unnecessary background programs. The front panel of the UPS has all the info in a small display. The PC is never unattended so there is no need for automatic shutdown. IMO, automatic shutdown is more for unattended servers.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 14:39:55 (permalink)
I agree Steve.
 
My sole concern is to protect the computer + ancillary equipment while I'm using it. It will always be switched off at the end of a session

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 14:46:06 (permalink)
The only concern I would have about tucking a UPS under desk is the same concern about a CPU...heat buildup. UPS devices can cast off a fair amount of heat which may not be a problem at your latitude but in mine used to cause the fan to cycle on high on an older unit. This was noisy and affected battery life.
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dstrenz
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 14:58:51 (permalink)
I didn't know that any of them have fans.. This is the Cyberpower I have:
http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/intelligent-lcd-ups/CP1500AVRLCD.html
It either has no fan, rarely spins, I'm losing my memory, or I'm going deaf because I haven't noticed any noise at all. Same with my APCs:
http://www.apc.com/resour...ex.cfm?base_sku=be500u
That page says noise is 40db at 1 meter. One is sitting here silently on the floor beside me and is cool to the touch.

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/29 19:51:37 (permalink)
I have numerous APC units  - all very quite (like silent) and all very reliable - had to replace the odd battery over the years but that's to be expected.
I also have another UPS in an office environment - I'm not near there at the moment but that has a fan and is noisy as hell! Can't remember the make unfortunately.
So I would say any non fan less model but for me it's APC every time
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/30 03:42:48 (permalink)
Ok guys, thanks to everyone for your input, I think I know which one I'm going for - yes it's an APC!!

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/07/31 16:40:01 (permalink)
Tripe lite over APC all day long
the mentioned Cyberpower is great
 
make sure you buy based on wattage NOT VA rating

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/08/02 03:16:09 (permalink)
Thanks Scott.
 
Too late I'm afraid, I ordered the APC a few days ago, it arrived yesterday and I'm pleased to report it is completely silent.
 
APC Back-UPS Pro 1200 - UPS - 720 Watt - 1200 VA.
 
This should have enough grunt to power my entire studio, if not, I have several wall sockets to power less critical devices

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/08/02 11:10:02 (permalink)
720W is very low. whats the power supply in your computer? monitors are like 50W each plus gear

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/08/02 13:59:59 (permalink)
I have an 850W (I know I need to upgrade and its in future planned upgrades) and it will get me by for 3 minutes and then long enough for the PC to do an orderly shutdown, along with the momentary glitches.
 
I have my PC, monitor (screen), Octa-Capture, Headset distribution amp, BCF2000 and cable modem (has voice telephone connection) on UPS.  I've never done any power amperage measurements to see what it all actually draws.

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/08/03 14:45:57 (permalink)
As long as I can power my computer, interface & monitors I'll be ok.
 
From memory, the psu in my computer is quite modestly rated - about 350W I think

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Re: Uninterruptible Power Supply 2014/08/24 22:38:53 (permalink)
I've been using an APC (for computer and 3 lcd monitors) and 3 Tripplite Voltage Regulators for the rest of my system.  They don't really create any noise except a rare click if a voltage regulator switches when there is a voltage drop and then of course the beep from the APC when the power goes out.  This seems to protect everything and it buy's plenty of time to do a proper shut down if the power goes out.

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