Good cans, vs. really good cans

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John-J
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2014/08/09 20:12:04 (permalink)

Good cans, vs. really good cans

I mix in the cans, I know people are opposed to this but I've gotten some pretty good mixes. I was using some pretty good Sony cans, but recently got some Ultrasone Pro 900s. They sound "completely different" than the Sony's, really rich and deep bass. The impact on the sound while mixing is profound. I would like nice near fields, but I don't have that option right now. But I can't say enough about the Ultrasone Pro 900s, they rock pretty hard.
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    BenMMusTech
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/09 21:07:59 (permalink)
    I use Beyer DT990, open back and very flat response.  It's **** that you can't pull good mixes from a pair of headphones.  It's just that you've got to know how to read meters properly and understand frequency response.  I recently finished a uni project all mixed in cans.  Went into studio to test mixes, perfect.  
     
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    gustabo
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/09 23:48:47 (permalink)
    At the price that Ultrasone Pro 900's sell for, they had better rock hard!
    Wow, those are some 'spensive headphones!
     


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    batsbrew
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/10 14:24:50 (permalink)
    i've used the ultrasone pro 750's, they are really really nice..
     
    but
     
    you'll never get your mixes to truly translate properly across multiple playback systems using just cans.
     
    just sayin

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/10 16:33:18 (permalink)
    It depends a bit on what the end listener playback system is going to be.  If it's headphones then creating a mix on phones might work pretty well.  If its speakers then you should at least hear how your mix sounds on speakers before sending it off.  As Ben says if the phones are good enough then there is no reason why a great speaker mix cannot start on phones.
     
    I used to have a pair of Stax SRX/ Mk III 's electrostatic headphones. Had a special driver box and they needed a high end power amp just to drive them!  In the 70's they were around $1000.  They are the closest thing I have heard compared to a high quality full range speaker.  It is like sitting right in front of a very good studio monitor.  I think it is easier listening to a great speaker mix on great headphones.  Harder trying to mix on phones and then hearing that on speakers.
     
    You do have to make adjustments.  Reverb being one of them.  I tend to hear the reverbs very clearly on phones  (hence turning them down)  only to find things are a little dry on the speakers.  Panning is another area of concern.  Headphones accentuate panning so what may sound slightly panned in phones might appear more centre in the speakers.  And things that sound panned in speakers can sound extreme panned in the phones and so on. 
     
    Keep your mixes fine tuned using buses and stems. Mixing at track level for balance but buses and stems can be trimmed easily.  eg reverbs turned up a little for speakers.  You could even use Channel Tools to alter the panning on a stem or buss depending on speaker or headphone listening.  It should be possible to get the two areas of speakers/phones satisfied.  When I compare mixes on the full speaker system compared to a mono Auratone type speaker at low volume, it is possible in various adjustments to satisfy both of those.  Likewise there must be middle ground for speaker/headphone approaches.  When several conditions are satisfied like that then translation works over many different playback systems.
     
    I am interested in hearing how those special systems sound that make headphones sound like a pair of (various!) monitors in a room.  That could be well worth investigating.  Another area where I find headphones very useful is obviously working out of hours and keeping quiet but for detailed microscopic editing thay are very good indeed.  You can hear much more on phones when you start to go through parts in detail.
     
    But for the OP the more money you throw at the headphones the better they are going to be and be tending towards nirvana.  (I could not believe how loud the Stax could go!)
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2014/08/10 17:42:55

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    John-J
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/10 23:40:42 (permalink)
    Good point, reverb is essential, and probably the most challenging aspect without some air... I didn't think about that. If you work at it though, I think you can get some pretty darn good results without air? (holds breath until others agree.)
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    Leadfoot
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/11 00:13:23 (permalink)
    I think that as long as you know your monitoring environment, you can be fairly consistent, regardless of what you're using.
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/11 08:24:26 (permalink)
    Mixing on cans..... yup, I've done it a time or two. I have some cheap ($30 bargain bin on sale) Yamaha cans.  But I never do the final mixes on cans...... without testing it and checking it on the monitors.
     
     
    If you learn the cans and really have good ears I think it's possible to get a decent mix on cans. BUT.....as was pointed out, the cans you buy in the stores tend to have BIASED sound designed into them...... fat heavy bass, bumped mids..... all in the attempt to get a signature sound and make the music EAR CANDY to their customers.
     
    In this business/hobby, we don't want "ear candy" in the studio. We want..... or hopefully so, the closest approximation to the actual truth in the music..... let the end user add the ear candy...we just want it to work on as many system/platforms as possible and sound good.

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    bitflipper
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/11 11:15:29 (permalink)
    Good headphones are indispensable. Having more than one model is helpful, too. I'd be very frustrated if I had to mix without headphones.
     
    In my experience, however, a good mix made entirely on headphones will not translate as well as a mix that was started on headphones and finished on speakers. That experience may not extend to everyone, though, especially those who are mixing in a poor acoustical environment. Unless you've invested in acoustical treatments and quality full-range speakers, you probably will do much better with high-end headphones. 
     
    As for the Ultrasone 900, I'd love to have a pair as an alternate reference. But I wonder how they'd do as a primary reference as they're quite unlike anything else, whether you're talking cans or loudspeakers. They're extremely bass-hyped, on par with Beatz by Dre. OTOH, they have an extraordinarily flat (for headphones) and extended high end. They sound wonderful, especially if you like lots o' bass.
     
    But I'm guessing a mix made entirely on them could likely end up sounding bass-light on a truly flat system. How about it John? Post your best mix made entirely on the Ultrasones and let us listen to it on a mix of speakers and headphones and report back.


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    BenMMusTech
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/11 19:55:50 (permalink)
    Guitarhacker
    Mixing on cans..... yup, I've done it a time or two. I have some cheap ($30 bargain bin on sale) Yamaha cans.  But I never do the final mixes on cans...... without testing it and checking it on the monitors.
     
     
    If you learn the cans and really have good ears I think it's possible to get a decent mix on cans. BUT.....as was pointed out, the cans you buy in the stores tend to have BIASED sound designed into them...... fat heavy bass, bumped mids..... all in the attempt to get a signature sound and make the music EAR CANDY to their customers.
     
    In this business/hobby, we don't want "ear candy" in the studio. We want..... or hopefully so, the closest approximation to the actual truth in the music..... let the end user add the ear candy...we just want it to work on as many system/platforms as possible and sound good.


    Hence I suggested what I use DTT990's not the best but supposedly headphone monitors.
     
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    Danny Danzi
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/12 13:13:05 (permalink)
    Whew mixing in cans....definitely possible but you may have to scope out quite a few pair before you find the ones that work for you. OR....if you notice you're bass light/bass heavy, you could always try and somewhat compensate with an eq in line to sort of flatten them. Just don't export with the eq enabled. I'd not even want to try something like that, but then again, it depends on how extreme things are.
     
    Cans are strange animals. Sometimes you get a pair that is cheap but they rock, other times a pricey pair can suck. The best ones for me have always been the AKG-K 240 DF's. They don't make them anymore though. A pair went on me a few months ago so I replaced them with the AKG 240 studio model. Huge difference for the worst in my opinion. The studio version sounds good, but they don't sound like the mix I created. So I'll be on a mission this month to try and find something that compares to the K 240 DF's I have left that work. They have a model that took their place, but no one ever seems to have them for me to try.
     
    Sennhesiser has some good cans too...but it depends on the model and when they were made. For example, I remember bitflipper saying he had a pair of the HD 280 pro and they sounded bass light to him. The ones I have here, made a few years later, are loaded with bass to the point of me having to run a little high pass at 60 or 80 Hz to calm them down a little.
     
    We just got a deal on 5 pair of KRK cans for the other studio. I'm not sure the model number right now, but when I used them for tracking vocals they sounded quite impressive. I didn't really spend a lot of time with them nor was I mixing with cans that night, but I plan on checking them out a bit more extensively to see how they sound while referencing a mix. I'll let you know how they sound as well as the model number if you're interested? Sorry I can't be more helpful.
     
    Here's what I'd suggest if it's possible for you:
     
    1. Most online music stores have a return policy. Use it and abuse it. Seriously. That's the price they have to pay having a "shipping" business like that where you can't physically be there to try stuff out.
     
    2. If you have a store that has a nice line of cans there, bring a few mixes you know like the back of your hand and reference them. You'll know when you hear the right set of cans....I promise. You may also want to bring some individual instrumentation CD's along with you. This shows you how instruments sound by themselves and this can help paint a better picture for you.
     
    For example, mixes sound good in my AKG studio cans...but there are elements that I would change if I were mixing in them. My guitar sounds don't sound like they do in my 240 DF's, which sound so close to my real monitors, it's scary. So when I hear my guitars in the Studio AKG's....I know they aren't right. There are some other things that are strange in them as well. If I would have tried them first without just buying them from Guitar Center, I would have never purchased them. So this round, I'm going into things totally different. The KRK's we bought were a deal...which you try to jump on when you own a studio and can get these things in quantity for a fair price. People just need to hear stuff at a decent quality....we don't need to impress them in cans. :)
     
    Anyway, good luck John. I've been here man...and it's frustrating. Especially if you can't have monitors due to apartment or family etc. That's what made me mix on cans exclusively. While I had pretty good results, I didn't mix anything that made me truly smile until after I was in a place that allowed me to have the right monitor rig. Hopefully you'll fair better than I did when I was in your situation.
     
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    BenMMusTech
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/12 20:29:18 (permalink)
    Danny Danzi
    Whew mixing in cans....definitely possible but you may have to scope out quite a few pair before you find the ones that work for you. OR....if you notice you're bass light/bass heavy, you could always try and somewhat compensate with an eq in line to sort of flatten them. Just don't export with the eq enabled. I'd not even want to try something like that, but then again, it depends on how extreme things are.
     
    Cans are strange animals. Sometimes you get a pair that is cheap but they rock, other times a pricey pair can suck. The best ones for me have always been the AKG-K 240 DF's. They don't make them anymore though. A pair went on me a few months ago so I replaced them with the AKG 240 studio model. Huge difference for the worst in my opinion. The studio version sounds good, but they don't sound like the mix I created. So I'll be on a mission this month to try and find something that compares to the K 240 DF's I have left that work. They have a model that took their place, but no one ever seems to have them for me to try.
     
    Sennhesiser has some good cans too...but it depends on the model and when they were made. For example, I remember bitflipper saying he had a pair of the HD 280 pro and they sounded bass light to him. The ones I have here, made a few years later, are loaded with bass to the point of me having to run a little high pass at 60 or 80 Hz to calm them down a little.
     
    We just got a deal on 5 pair of KRK cans for the other studio. I'm not sure the model number right now, but when I used them for tracking vocals they sounded quite impressive. I didn't really spend a lot of time with them nor was I mixing with cans that night, but I plan on checking them out a bit more extensively to see how they sound while referencing a mix. I'll let you know how they sound as well as the model number if you're interested? Sorry I can't be more helpful.
     
    Here's what I'd suggest if it's possible for you:
     
    1. Most online music stores have a return policy. Use it and abuse it. Seriously. That's the price they have to pay having a "shipping" business like that where you can't physically be there to try stuff out.
     
    2. If you have a store that has a nice line of cans there, bring a few mixes you know like the back of your hand and reference them. You'll know when you hear the right set of cans....I promise. You may also want to bring some individual instrumentation CD's along with you. This shows you how instruments sound by themselves and this can help paint a better picture for you.
     
    For example, mixes sound good in my AKG studio cans...but there are elements that I would change if I were mixing in them. My guitar sounds don't sound like they do in my 240 DF's, which sound so close to my real monitors, it's scary. So when I hear my guitars in the Studio AKG's....I know they aren't right. There are some other things that are strange in them as well. If I would have tried them first without just buying them from Guitar Center, I would have never purchased them. So this round, I'm going into things totally different. The KRK's we bought were a deal...which you try to jump on when you own a studio and can get these things in quantity for a fair price. People just need to hear stuff at a decent quality....we don't need to impress them in cans. :)
     
    Anyway, good luck John. I've been here man...and it's frustrating. Especially if you can't have monitors due to apartment or family etc. That's what made me mix on cans exclusively. While I had pretty good results, I didn't mix anything that made me truly smile until after I was in a place that allowed me to have the right monitor rig. Hopefully you'll fair better than I did when I was in your situation.
     
    -Danny


    Hi Danny this is why I think if you are going to mix on cans you have to know how to read meters.  It's the meters that correct the cans mistakes.  I know that is counter-intuitive for an old school ears man like yourself but as a visual mixer, which I am and they do exist, you can pull good mixes.  I've just finished mixing my uni project and when I went into the studio what I heard in the cans translated perfectly in the studio.  The studio is a pro studio too. 
     
    Ben

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    Mesh
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/13 11:33:32 (permalink)
    John-J
    I mix in the cans, I know people are opposed to this but I've gotten some pretty good mixes. I was using some pretty good Sony cans, but recently got some Ultrasone Pro 900s. They sound "completely different" than the Sony's, really rich and deep bass. The impact on the sound while mixing is profound. I would like nice near fields, but I don't have that option right now. But I can't say enough about the Ultrasone Pro 900s, they rock pretty hard.


    I've had the Ultrasone Pro 750's for a few years now and truly do love them. I generally do all my recording/mixing/gaming during the night (after the little one's have gone to bed) and rely on these a lot. However, I do use my monitors (the next day) to compare/see and see how everything translated. I just can't say enough about the clarity/quality of sound on the 750's........I can only imagine the 900's to be much better.   

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    The Band19
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/13 22:56:09 (permalink)
    Ultrasone baby!  I'm a fan.

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    dcumpian
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/14 08:22:59 (permalink)
    Out of curiosity, how much better are the Ultrasone's from the standard ATH-M50's everyone always recommends?
     
    Regards,
    Dan
     

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    Jeff Evans
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/14 08:56:00 (permalink)
    Comon guys you are still all talking about rubbish.
     
    These are serious headphones.  The OP says good cans compared to really good cans. Here are the really good cans.
     
    https://www.staxusa.com/earspeaker/stax-sr-009.html
     
    And look they are only $4,500!  I am not even sure the driver unit comes with them at this price.  Also you need a nice serious amp to drive them too. They are not effecient.
     
    All I can say is the Stax SRX's I had were seriously amazing.  It was like sitting in front of a very serious studio monitor.  Still not sure about mixing on them though.  I think some of the points I made earlier still apply.
     
    Ok have done some research.  There is a passive unit that can be used which relies on the power of the power amp driving them.  Mine had the passive drive box (ie step up transformer I would say as per Quad Electrostatics)
     
    But for another $2100 you can get their own power amplifier:
     
    https://www.staxusa.com/stax-srm-007tii.html
     
    Just out of interest back in the day when some of us had Quad Electrostatic speakers, one of us built a transformerless output balanced class A valve amp with no output transformer.  He modified his Quads and bypassed the step-up transformer that is also in the Quads hence driving the high voltage elements direct from the balanced amplifier. The result was ridiculous compared to a transformer based valve amp driving the Quads with their transformers in circuit. (transformers are crap!)
     
    Stax are doing exactly the same thing here with this driver amp. That would really be something to hear I bet.
     
     
    post edited by Jeff Evans - 2014/08/14 09:02:52

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    musicroom
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/14 11:37:56 (permalink)
    The Shure 940's translate admirably. I seldom have to make serious adjustments from the cans to monitors. 
     
    I think the key for success for those of us who have to mix with headphones 90% of the time is to start with decent headphones. And then study the differences in what you're hearing between the monitor and headphones. I find programs like focusrite vrm box and tonebooster's izone useful as well for learning how your mix "might" sound everywhere else... Overall, as a songwriter I get good results through the shures. If I were mixing for other's in a professional setting, I may not be so easy to please relying on just headphones.

     
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    bitflipper
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/14 12:24:03 (permalink)
    dcumpian
    Out of curiosity, how much better are the Ultrasone's from the standard ATH-M50's everyone always recommends?
     
    Regards,
    Dan
     


    Not radically different, Dan. The Ultrasones are much brighter and flatter in the high end, and even more bass-hyped than the ATH-M50s.
     
    It's not that the AT's are accurate - they're not - but that their imperfections are somewhat beneficial. Just as the legendary NS10s had those screechy tweeters that helped you nail the midrange, the ATH-M50s have a boost in the mud range that helps you get clarity down there.
     
    What the Ultransones would do for you is give better detail in the highs, which is the AT's greatest weakness. I could see that being a big plus for editing. I have a pair of open-back Sennheisers that have much better highs than the ATs, and prefer them for editing.
     
    I suspect that with enough practice, it's possible to achieve a good, translatable balance with just about any pair of headphones, as long as they aren't severely deficient. It mostly comes down to training your ears to recognize what a good mix sounds like in them.


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    #18
    dcumpian
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/14 13:42:42 (permalink)
    The only problem I have with the ATH-M50's I use is really my own fault...my mix comes out of my DAW into a Mackie mixer aux channel and the seriously limits my ability to hear anything below 60hz. I can see it (in any analyzer), but I can't hear it, at least until I turn on my monitors and sub. I really need to add a separate headphone amp to monitor through.
     
    That said, one of these days I need to find a high-end store that carries these headphones. Not buying anything for that kind of money without hearing it first, lol. I live in the country way outside of Richmond, VA, and high end audio equipment just isn't really appreciated. If Best Buy doesn't carry it, it must not be that good...
     
    Regards,
    Dan
     

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    #19
    Danny Danzi
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/18 19:56:50 (permalink)
    Incidentally, I just picked up the AKG K-240 MKII's today...which supposedly replaced my old trusty K-240 DF's. These MKII's sound terrific all across the board for me and obliterate the gold 240 pro's. Definitely worth checking into for $149. Just right on the low end, mids and highs. I'm quite impressed. I like these better than my DF's. I haven't mixed in them yet, but the sound on mixes I've done already as well as me playing live into them and other pro mixes sound as they should. I'm pretty stoked!
     
    -Danny

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    #20
    batsbrew
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/18 19:59:27 (permalink)
    that's my set of cans as well danny

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    #21
    Rimshot
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/18 20:23:22 (permalink)

    Rimshot 

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    #22
    bapu
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/18 20:46:03 (permalink)
    I mix hard on ATH-M50s. Verify on Sennheiser HD600's, AKG K-240 MKII, Sennheiser IE6 buds and THESE.
     
    Then I test/verify using ARC 2 on my Mackies with my Adam sub. Then I go to the car.
     
    After all that, my mixes are still sh!te.
    #23
    The Band19
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/18 21:16:21 (permalink)
    No Ed, your mixes are actually pretty good. We can have a discussion on production... 

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    #24
    bapu
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/18 22:26:12 (permalink)
    bitflipper
     It mostly comes down to training your ears to recognize what a good mix sounds like in them.


    ^^ that.
    #25
    Rimshot
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/21 23:16:02 (permalink)
    I just ordered a pair of AKG 240 MKII's today.  I like my ATH M-50's but after reading this thread, decided to add the AKG's to my tool box.  I want a lighter set of cans to start my mixes with.  
     
    Rimshot

    Rimshot 

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    #26
    Rimshot
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/23 18:46:11 (permalink)
    I just got my new pair of AKG 240's and the sure seem bright right out of the box.  Do they mellow out or will my ears adjust in time?  Should I break 'em in or just wait for the ear pads to conform to my head?
     


    Rimshot 

    Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 
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    #27
    batsbrew
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    Re: Good cans, vs. really good cans 2014/08/27 10:20:10 (permalink)
    the akg's will break in with use.
    just about any speaker will have some breakin time, unless they do it during manufacturing.
     
     

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    #28
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