Helpful ReplyAcoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. Fethead...

Author
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 7601
  • Joined: 2003/11/26 19:14:18
  • Status: offline
2014/08/10 18:55:47 (permalink)

Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. Fethead...

I have an old Takamine. A G330 (lawsuit model). I have an old "in the hole" pickup, DiMarzio I think. I never use it. I am thinking about getting a good pickup put in it, I don't care if there has to be a hole cut in the bout for the EQ and whatever other controls.
So... my question is this. Does anyone have a recommendation for a good pickup system?
 
Other question. I am thinking about buying a Cloudlifter preamp for ribbon and dynamic mics (SM7b primarily). I am thinking about going ahead and getting the one with two preamps but there is another one the "Z" that offers more control. Is anyone using one of these? Any thoughts on which one to get?
Links. http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/?page_id=227 or http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/?page_id=217 maybe http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/?page_id=222 
 
edit> you know what. I got forgot about the Fethead. It was what I was originally looking at for helping ribbon microphones. It is cheaper too. http://www.economik.com/triton-audio/fethead/
 
Thanks,
Julien
post edited by jbow - 2014/08/11 19:28:44

Sonar Platinum
Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles)
HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM
Octa-Capture
KRK Rokit-8s
MIDI keyboards...
Control Pad
mics. 
I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
#1
fireberd
Max Output Level: -38 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3704
  • Joined: 2008/02/25 14:14:28
  • Location: Inverness, FL
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/11 08:53:35 (permalink)
Fishman is the most often used in (factory) guitars, and most of what is for sale separately.  My wife has a Takamine and a new Martin and both have Fishman electronics with under the bridge pickups.
 
Keep an eye on the Musician's Friend site and their stupid deal of the day.  Occasionally they have will have one of their own brand name "Rogue" guitars on sale with a Fishman pickup for less than you can buy a Fishman pickup system.   The Rogue guitars are cheap and crap but the Fishman electronics can be installed in another guitar.   I did that about a year ago with an $89 stupid deal of the day - installed the electronics in a friends guitar and we trashed the guitar.

"GCSG Productions"
Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. 
ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release
Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors,  
Ozone 5,  Studio One 4.1
ISRC Registered
Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
#2
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 7601
  • Joined: 2003/11/26 19:14:18
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/11 11:07:05 (permalink)
Keep an eye on the Musician's Friend site and their stupid deal of the day.  Occasionally they have will have one of their own brand name "Rogue" guitars on sale with a Fishman pickup for less than you can buy a Fishman pickup system.   The Rogue guitars are cheap and crap but the Fishman electronics can be installed in another guitar.   I did that about a year ago with an $89 stupid deal of the day - installed the electronics in a friends guitar and we trashed the guitar.
 
Wow, thanks Fireberd! What a great tip! I'll do just that.
 
Julien

Sonar Platinum
Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles)
HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM
Octa-Capture
KRK Rokit-8s
MIDI keyboards...
Control Pad
mics. 
I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
#3
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10654
  • Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
  • Location: TeXaS
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/11 11:58:59 (permalink)
The Cloudlifter works the few times I've used it.  A better (and more expensive!) answer is a good preamp.  The Warm Audio WA12 or Focusrite ISA One (about $400) will supply enough gain for ribbons or SMb 7.  And dynamics respond really well to a good preamp.  We were fooling around w/ a Telefunken M-80 on different preamps and you could plainly hear the preamp.  Much more than with most condensers.  It is a lot of money, but you can use them until you are 64, and past.  If you think of it as a long-term investment, it is easier to swallow.  And your condensers will love it, too.
@

https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
 
there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
#4
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 7601
  • Joined: 2003/11/26 19:14:18
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/11 19:19:08 (permalink)
Well, if I can use it for a year and a half I guess it is a good deal!
 
The reason I was looking at the Cloudlifter was originally to boost a ribbon mic while protecting it from phantom power. I'll probably go with the 149.00 single channel model. Use it with an Octa-Capture, keep the OC pres a little lower. If I really like it I may spring for the "Z", not sure. Everything I read about the Cloudlifter sounds interesting to me. I'm happy to hear that it does work.
Thanks,
J

Sonar Platinum
Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles)
HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM
Octa-Capture
KRK Rokit-8s
MIDI keyboards...
Control Pad
mics. 
I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
#5
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5321
  • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
  • Location: Maryland, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/11 19:41:22 (permalink)
Re: the pickup... I have an old Dean Markley PRO-MAG "in the hole" pickup that I do use off and on. The advantage is it is further from the bridge than and "under saddle" bridge pickup, so doesn't pick up excessive high harmonics (creates a very high timbre) and is electric, so won't pick up environment noise like a microphone can.
 
I would personally not cut any holes into the face, as much of the tension to support the bridge is "engineered" into that face. If you can pull the saddle out with the strings off (it may be glued in), then an "under saddle" bridge pickup could be installed (it would require 2 holes drilled... one small one under the saddle on one end, and another for an instrument jack on the body). Can google "under saddle bridge pickup" to see what one looks like.
 
If you have never tried the "in the hole" pickup you own, it may be worth giving it a run. I personally am not a big fan of the bridge pickup, although my acoustic has one.
 
Edit: I found reference that the 330s is a solid top, and the 330 is laminate. A laminate top is definitely something I would never cut.

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
#6
MacFurse
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 324
  • Joined: 2013/11/10 07:25:54
  • Location: Newcastle - Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/12 00:32:54 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bluzdog 2014/08/12 00:34:11
Not a fan of soundhole pickups at all. I've yet to hear one that doesn't lose all 'acoustic' character, all sounding very middy, very 'electrified'. 
 
I've installed many bridge piezo pickups. (owned a music shop). Mettelus is talking about not cutting the face, which you never would, but the eq's mount usually on the top edge, and I'm a fan of replacing the strap end pin with a jack/strap pin combo. Fitting the piezo strip is not an easy thing to do as the saddle slot usually needs shaping and perfect routing, otherwise the piezo strip will not seat correctly, and you get a variance in tone/volume from individual strings. Cutting the hole for the eq, and drilling the whole for the jack, are best left to someone with the right tools and some experience. It's very easy to tear the wood. If you go down the route of a piezo pickup, take it to someone who does these things on a regular basis, or to someone recommended. Believe me, it can go horribily wrong.
 
I find piezo bridge pickups the best for recording, and for playing live.
 
But having said that, for tracking, I only mic up my acoustic's. Can't beat that sound when done right.
 
All the best with it.

Platinum. i7 4771 3.5ghz. ECU H87 mobo with 3 monitor support. 16gb Ripjaws 1600mhz. Focusrite 18i20. 2 x 250gb Samsung EVO SSD's OP/Programs. 2x1TB Seagate Baracuda sata3 data drives. 200gb sata2 bootable drive for online and downloading only. Seagate 2tb USB 3.0 backup drive.  2x27in monitors. Rode K2 valve mic. Sontronics STC-1 pair. Studio Projects B1 condenser. SM58B. SM57B. Presonus Eureka Preamp.
#7
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5321
  • Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
  • Location: Maryland, USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/13 10:03:14 (permalink)
MacFurse
But having said that, for tracking, I only mic up my acoustic's. Can't beat that sound when done right.



Very nice post! Thank you for the clarification (I actually prefer a mic when tracking as well).
 
In all seriousness, for the "cost" of doing this work, you could pick up another guitar. I had an Ovation that split on the (solid) face (after 25 years), and went to a Guitar Center (wanting a acoustic/electric cutaway), and bought a Fender 140SCE which sounds very nice (I think was on sale for like $220). This already has all of the things mentioned in the OP, and sounds beautiful.
 
Stupid aside - I played a LOT of guitars that day, and asked the rep why the one I bought had nicer sound than ones significantly more expensive. His reply was, "The assembly/gluing of each is unique, so each one will have a different sound to them." I personally would never buy a guitar online for this same reason... you need to play it to hear it... in fact, the best sounding guitar was even cheaper (but no pickup or cutaway), so I went with the one I bought.

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
#8
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10654
  • Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
  • Location: TeXaS
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/13 14:12:55 (permalink)
Best point of the entire thread, Mettelus.
 
@

https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
 
there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
#9
sock monkey
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 547
  • Joined: 2011/11/06 12:12:08
  • Location: Tree Top Studios
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/13 14:37:07 (permalink)
I agree that installing an under the saddle PU is a very tricky business. You can do some serious damage and loose the original tone of the guitar too! 
I also find that a under the saddle PU system most times will be uneven output from each string. 
 
Go into any music shop and using an acoustic amp and a set of headphones audition ANY acoustic electric,, slowly one by one listen to the volume of each string. 
 
The best I've used for even sound was the LR Baggs with the solid brass bottom that Seagulls used to use. They now use the common ribbon type and they suck now too. 
 
So I have become a fan of using a mike again. 
I use the Saddle PU for rhythm and the mike for leads and fills when playing live.
And don't toss out the old Dean Markley, Those were good PU's.
My son just bought a sound hole PU system and it sounds great,,, I think it's called Gold Tone?? 
 
 
post edited by sock monkey - 2014/08/18 09:48:09

Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
Singer Songwriter, Solo Performer, Acoustic Duo and semi pro Sound Monkey.   
  
#10
pentimentosound
Max Output Level: -60 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1535
  • Joined: 2005/08/15 23:37:34
  • Location: Honor, Michigan
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/13 15:44:15 (permalink)
I used to gig solo with an undersaddle Fishman and an EMG Strat SA(? no poles showing)that I made a set of brackets for it to mount across the soundhole. Each had it's own jack on my Guild F50 maple and I ran the Fishman into a chorus pedal into the PA and the EMG through an echo pedal into an amp with JBL K140 15". That combo sounded great and even sounded like two REALLY well sync'd guitars (this was back in the cassette days) when I played back my live recordings.
    K&K's sound "really like" the guitar they are mounted on! Having had lots of undersaddle acoustic guitars, and Taylors with both the Fishman and their Expression system(which I am not a fan of), I am very impressed with my current Martin GPCPA5K, with it's undersaddle Fishman. I think those pickups are much better nowadays than back when they first appeared. I think they can be mounted well, and will sound very good, IF you find someone with the skill and experience to do it right. I am sticking with them for now to work with my Fishman Aura Spectrum and 16 pedals, for live stuff. I haven't recorded them that way yet, but am hoping it's a useful system for that, too. I do have some nice mics and an ISA One, which has 60db gain, plus 20db extra, with 4 impedance options, so I don't really need the Cloudlifter Z, but I am thinking the Z would do nicely, if you don't want an ISA.
Michael
 
  
#11
MacFurse
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 324
  • Joined: 2013/11/10 07:25:54
  • Location: Newcastle - Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. 2014/08/13 20:46:51 (permalink)
This thread shows exactly what acoustic guitars are all about. Personal happiness. There is no wrong or right, just what is right for you. Anyone who has ever worked in a music shop will tell you that if 20 guitars arrive of the same make and model, one might 'grab' you. Also, the amount of prep work that goes into each and every guitar before hanging on the wall, would probably stun the average purchaser. (if the shop was a good one!!) This is the same for electrics. Fender was the one of the 'worst' for extra attention in my book.
 
If your old Takamine has a sound you love, then my advice is to mic it up (whole subject on it's on), and buy yourself an acoustic/electric that you are happy with. The older the guitar, the easier to damage when cutting/drilling. They are best done from the factory unless you have a real reason to modify your old guitar, such as taking it on the road. If you buy one, just make sure you plug it in too, don't just go on the unplugged sound.
 
We are fortunate here in Australia to have what I feel is the best 'plugged in' sound. Cole Clark. A combination of piezo and under sound board mic's, mixed through the eq. Jack Johnson started producing albums using one, and it's very clear from his albums when he started doing so. But once again, after trying dozens, I found only one guitar that I really liked to play. (I am very fussy) Went back a week later to get it, and gone, and havn't found another like it since. I'm still on the hunt. You can hear one in action just walking into a venue, they are that different. But I love my Ephiphone 'moustache', the Gibson 'Songwriter' is awesome, my Maton custom, and my wife's old Yamaha something or other is just brilliant on any stage. And Cort make some of the best priced, best sounding and playable guitars in their respective price ranges, bar none. It's very personal.
 
This topic is almost endless, and once again, some excellent contributions. Take it all onboard, and then do what's right for you.
 
 

Platinum. i7 4771 3.5ghz. ECU H87 mobo with 3 monitor support. 16gb Ripjaws 1600mhz. Focusrite 18i20. 2 x 250gb Samsung EVO SSD's OP/Programs. 2x1TB Seagate Baracuda sata3 data drives. 200gb sata2 bootable drive for online and downloading only. Seagate 2tb USB 3.0 backup drive.  2x27in monitors. Rode K2 valve mic. Sontronics STC-1 pair. Studio Projects B1 condenser. SM58B. SM57B. Presonus Eureka Preamp.
#12
tagruvto
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 221
  • Joined: 2003/12/03 17:21:29
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. Fethead... 2014/08/17 09:34:37 (permalink)

Other question. I am thinking about buying a Cloudlifter preamp for ribbon and dynamic mics (SM7b primarily). I am thinking about going ahead and getting the one with two preamps but there is another one the "Z" that offers more control. Is anyone using one of these? Any thoughts on which one to get?
Links. http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/?page_id=227 or http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/?page_id=217 maybe http://cloudmicrophones.com/cloud12/?page_id=222 
 
edit> you know what. I got forgot about the Fethead. It was what I was originally looking at for helping ribbon microphones. It is cheaper too. http://www.economik.com/triton-audio/fethead/
 
Thanks,
Julien




I purchased the single channel Cloudlifter a while back and absolutely love it.  It allows me to use my ribbon mic with my Focusrite pre in my Scarlett 18i20 - there isn't enough usable gain in the Scarlett for this particular ribbon.
I'll bet the Fethead would do the job too.  I had a 15% off coupon from GC......

i7-4770 CPU @3.40 GHZ
16.0 GB RAM
Widows 10   64-bit
SONAR Platinum
Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
#13
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 7601
  • Joined: 2003/11/26 19:14:18
  • Status: offline
Re: Acoustic guitar pickup question and Cloudlifter preamp question. Fethead... 2014/08/18 18:08:25 (permalink)
Thanks everyone for all the helpful replies.
 
MacFruse I'll take this under advisement for sure... If your old Takamine has a sound you love, then my advice is to mic it up (whole subject on it's on), and buy yourself an acoustic/electric that you are happy with. The older the guitar, the easier to damage when cutting/drilling. They are best done from the factory unless you have a real reason to modify your old guitar, such as taking it on the road. If you buy one, just make sure you plug it in too, don't just go on the unplugged sound.
 
I need to check and see if I have an "S" or a 330. Either way, I would only cut a hole in the side for an EQ panel, not the top. However, I think I'll just use the "hole pickup" or a mic (or two) and get another acoustic/electric.. (or a better mic). I'd really like a Martin or other good quality 000 body acoustic, my need for a pickup is secondary.
 
tagruvto This is helpful too: I purchased the single channel Cloudlifter a while back and absolutely love it.  It allows me to use my ribbon mic with my Focusrite pre in my Scarlett 18i20 - there isn't enough usable gain in the Scarlett for this particular ribbon.
I'll bet the Fethead would do the job too.  I had a 15% off coupon from GC......

 
I'm going to jump on one or the other tomorrow. I need it like... now.
 
Julien

Sonar Platinum
Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles)
HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM
Octa-Capture
KRK Rokit-8s
MIDI keyboards...
Control Pad
mics. 
I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
#14
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1