Helpful ReplyPlosives - ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? (Solved)

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bitSync
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2014/08/11 11:45:06 (permalink)

Plosives - ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? (Solved)

Can anyone point me to an ARA-enabled VST3 EQ I can use in Sonar's Region FX?  I need to pummel some pesky plosives.  Thanks!
post edited by bitSync - 2014/08/18 16:42:18

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Anderton
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/11 11:52:07 (permalink)
Why does it need to be ARA-enabled? Also, there are better ways to get rid of plosives than with EQ. I can elaborate if you want.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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bitSync
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/11 12:52:53 (permalink)
Anderton
Why does it need to be ARA-enabled? Also, there are better ways to get rid of plosives than with EQ. I can elaborate if you want.


Hi Craig,
 
The techniques I've seen look like slicing the plosive chuck of audio out of the track and moving it to another track where a high pass is applied.  I thought Region FX would be a good way to precisely apply EQ to the unwanted transient without all the track surgery.  I imagine I could find similar success with regionally applied compression or maybe side-chaining with a super narrow band on the plosive.  But if I could confine the processing to just those several thousand samples per plosive I could avoid processing the entire track.
 
So, to answer your question, it doesn't need to be ARA-enabled, it just has to work while doing as little collateral damage as possible.  FYI, both a Stedman metalic filter and a mesh filter were employed while recording, but the delivery was especially emotive, and close.  I like the track a lot but the explosions must go.  Totally open to any great suggestions for plosive banishment.  Thanks!

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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/11 15:12:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bitSync 2014/08/11 16:36:26
First, if you have the bucks, the Pauly Superscreen is a quantum improvement over any pop filter I've ever used. It's amazing (and at that price, it should be).
 
Second, here's what I do for plosives.
 
1. Add a steep highpass filter that's below the range of the "real" signal so the signal you want to keep is not affected by the highpass filter. This won't eliminate the plosive, but it will make the next two steps more effective. The ProChannel's 48dB/octave highpass filter is great for this.
2. Split the clip at the precise place where the plosive starts.
3. Fade in the plosive using the slow fade-in.
 
By varying the fade's duration, you can dial in the desired amount of plosive reduction. I use the same technique to reduce, but not eliminate, breath noise.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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bitSync
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/11 16:42:52 (permalink)
Cool.  I'll give it a shot.  Thanks.

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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/11 16:47:21 (permalink)
Cool tip, Craig. I usually use MB compression, but this seems more "surgical".
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/11 17:19:43 (permalink)
Craig. I eliminate breath noise by not breathing. Yuk yuk.
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/11 17:57:02 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
Cool tip, Craig. I usually use MB compression, but this seems more "surgical".



I feel plosives are supposed to be there to some degree; the problem is when they're too loud. The fade-in approach lets you adjust volume without artifacts, so that's why I prefer it.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/11 22:55:02 (permalink)
I typically do as Craig is recommending... But I was just thinking... It might be interesting tolit it out in the same way and use the Transient Shaper?

Keni

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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/11 23:03:55 (permalink)
Anderton
First, if you have the bucks, the Pauly Superscreen is a quantum improvement over any pop filter I've ever used. It's amazing (and at that price, it should be).
 
Second, here's what I do for plosives.
 
1. Add a steep highpass filter that's below the range of the "real" signal so the signal you want to keep is not affected by the highpass filter. This won't eliminate the plosive, but it will make the next two steps more effective. The ProChannel's 48dB/octave highpass filter is great for this.
2. Split the clip at the precise place where the plosive starts.
3. Fade in the plosive using the slow fade-in.
 
By varying the fade's duration, you can dial in the desired amount of plosive reduction. I use the same technique to reduce, but not eliminate, breath noise.


Hi Craig..

Not to derail this thread, but a quick question if you please?

I was just looking at the supers even from your link... Other than it's unique mounting ideas, how much better is it as a surface than an original Popper Stopper?

The Popper Stopper does fine for my needs, but I'm good about controlling my plosives most of the time... But I've had some clients... ;-)

Keni

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bitSync
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/18 16:39:17 (permalink)
Moderator - I hope this still post belongs in this forum; if not, please just delete or move it.
 
I wanted to report on my solution to the prominent plosives.  I discovered iZotope RX3 Spectral Repair.  Yikes!  What an awesome utility.  Not only did I get rid of the plosives but the CPU fan noise from an open mike and the barking dogs (4 of them) from the floor above.  I'm sure the techniques recommended in here are very useful but this RX3 really kicked butt for me.  Just wanted to share.

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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/18 17:06:57 (permalink)
RX3 is indeed a rocking piece of software if you need all it has to offer. It's definitely appropriate for a Sonar forum because every now and then we have to deal with projects that have hum, noise, etc. and benefits from spectral editing.
 
However...having just dealt with some plosives last night on a vocal, I still think the fade-in is the fastest way to get it right because you can tailor exactly how much you want to take out and how much you want to leave in. Also, any "repairs" leave no artifacts.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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bitSync
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/18 18:46:54 (permalink)
Anderton
RX3 is indeed a rocking piece of software if you need all it has to offer. It's definitely appropriate for a Sonar forum because every now and then we have to deal with projects that have hum, noise, etc. and benefits from spectral editing.
 
However...having just dealt with some plosives last night on a vocal, I still think the fade-in is the fastest way to get it right because you can tailor exactly how much you want to take out and how much you want to leave in. Also, any "repairs" leave no artifacts.


Hi Craig,
 
Thanks for your continued interest in this topic.  I'm really happy your technique works so well for you.  It's remarkable how many ways there are to skin a cat. 
 
I'm not sure what you are meaning by "leave no artifacts".  Have you tried RX3 Spectral Repair on plosives?
 
I have to say that the RX3 solution took basically the idea I was looking for, a Region FX EQ (static frequency and band slope), and took it to a whole new level.  Instead of a Region FX simply applying a static frequency/slope band EQ to a specific time span, the RX3 Spectral Repair applies precise attenuation only to the egregious spectral region (VLF) which is actually variable in frequency over the plosive time span (i.e., the filter band edge frequencies are adjustable over time), only for the specific span of time present (visible in the spectrogram) and only to the degree of attenuation sought for the temporal span.  The technique is like speed surgery, a plosivectomy.  Once you get the hang of it, the spectral repair for a plosive can be achieved in seconds with ridiculous accuracy and with seemingly no undesirable artifacts, only the artifacts you want (no more plosive and no adverse impact to any of the other spectral energy).  Not dissing your technique at all, if it works for you that's awesome.  But this RX3 Spectral Repair is super cool and super high fidelity and I didn't want readers to think it introduced undesirable artifacts.  It's another excellent tool for the toolbox.  Best regards. 

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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/18 19:53:18 (permalink)
bitSync
Thanks for your continued interest in this topic.  I'm really happy your technique works so well for you.  It's remarkable how many ways there are to skin a cat. 
 
I'm not sure what you are meaning by "leave no artifacts". 



Of the many ways to skin a cat, some leave audible artifacts and others don't. For example with multiband compression, in some cases you can hear the compression "breathing." Applying a fade affects no aspect of the audio other than level. So unless you knew that previously the level had been louder, there's no way you would know that the fade had altered the signal in any way. 
 
I've done a lot of restoration work over the years, the worst being a cassette tape whose battery was dying and therefore it was also changing speed as well as being a cassette! Generally the more you have to correct something, the greater the risk of hearing that corrections are taking place. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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bitSync
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/18 22:08:44 (permalink)
Anderton
bitSync
Thanks for your continued interest in this topic.  I'm really happy your technique works so well for you.  It's remarkable how many ways there are to skin a cat. 
 
I'm not sure what you are meaning by "leave no artifacts". 



Of the many ways to skin a cat, some leave audible artifacts and others don't. For example with multiband compression, in some cases you can hear the compression "breathing." Applying a fade affects no aspect of the audio other than level. So unless you knew that previously the level had been louder, there's no way you would know that the fade had altered the signal in any way. 
 
I've done a lot of restoration work over the years, the worst being a cassette tape whose battery was dying and therefore it was also changing speed as well as being a cassette! Generally the more you have to correct something, the greater the risk of hearing that corrections are taking place. 


Hi Craig,
 
No doubt your cassette restoration job was very challenging and that the extreme processing measures applied to the audio to rescue that mess may have ultimately caused both improvements as well as undesirable artifacts from the extreme processing.  Makes total sense.
 
I'm feeling a bit like I'm having to defend RX3's awesome performance from allegations of potential undesirable artifacts.  Yes?  I would like to be clear that the plosive processing I described above through RX3's Spectral Repair was absolutely exceptional and caused no audible artifacts whatever (besides the intended disappearance of the plosive low frequency energy) - simply impressive, glorious, easy, artifact-free, plosive processing.  Just sayin'.  Peace.
 
P.S. - If you're interested in the techniques that was used there's a video illustrating the process on YouTube at about 3:15.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9e9-ENJtxM

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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/18 22:46:47 (permalink)
RX3 needs no defense, it is teh awesome. RX4 was preannounced over email at least. Should arrive in September. Just wishful thinking here but I really hope they implement ARA for the spectral repair thingy!
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/18 22:53:46 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
RX3 needs no defense, it is teh awesome. RX4 was preannounced over email at least. Should arrive in September. Just wishful thinking here but I really hope they implement ARA for the spectral repair thingy!


Agreed.  Same hopes here about the ARA.

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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/19 00:45:52 (permalink)
bitSync
I'm feeling a bit like I'm having to defend RX3's awesome performance from allegations of potential undesirable artifacts.  Yes?



Not at all! RX3 is incredible, I have it. Actually I have several iZotope programs, their products are all made to very high standards. It's also a company populated by cool people, some of whom are friends. And it's an ethical company - when they made Trash, as far as they knew I invented multiband distortion (I'm pretty sure that's right) and they asked for permission to copy my idea, even though I had placed it in the public domain and they were legally and morally entitled to use it any way they liked (FYI Steinberg did the same thing with the Quadrafuzz). I guess the only negative thing I can say about iZotope is their name is hell on spell checkers 
 
But as I said at the beginning, "RX3 is indeed a rocking piece of software if you need all it has to offer. It's definitely appropriate for a Sonar forum because every now and then we have to deal with projects that have hum, noise, etc. and benefit from spectral editing."
 
But the key words are if you need all it has to offer, which is considerable and involves extra expense as well as learning a new program. If all that's needed is to tame plosives, I suggested a free method that's already in Sonar and my pointing out it doesn't cause artifacts is simply that - it doesn't cause artifacts. That doesn't mean RX3 does. However some other methods like multiband compression, using "noise reduction" algorithms that take a fingerprint of a specific sound, or a transient shaper could add artifacts, so I wanted to be clear that adding a fade doesn't. I generally believe in doing the least invasive process possible with audio.  

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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bitSync
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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/19 00:47:55 (permalink)
Cool.  Thanks, Craig.

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Re: ARA Region FX EQ in Sonar X3? 2014/08/22 09:13:30 (permalink)
Well, RX4 was announced (if not officially launched) and the specs page says "RX Connect", not ARA. I mailed them and it seems the support staff at least is not aware of ARA so there are probably no short term plans. They would "pass it on" to development. I is sad.
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