Sends & Busses - Stupid Question?

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TMG
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2014/08/11 12:03:17 (permalink)

Sends & Busses - Stupid Question?

Hi all,
 
Having watched a lot of YouTube videos on various subjects surrounding the dark arts of mixing (as one does) I've noticed that in some other DAW software it is possible to send from a track to another track - or, at least, have the bus right alongside the tracks in the same pane. Forgive me if I have completely missed something, but is it possible to have Sonar do the same? I often find I use a lot of busses when mixing and it can get tiring flipping from one pane to another when, for example, I'm trying to balance a track with its respective send bus.
 
Any thoughts or ideas appreciated :)

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18 Replies Related Threads

    konradh
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 13:34:05 (permalink)
    As far as I know, you cannot send to another track or have the bus in the track pane.

    Konrad
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    #2
    TMG
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 13:38:51 (permalink)
    Thanks for the reply kondadh. I thought this was probably the case but I'm hoping someone will tell me there's an alternative!

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    #3
    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 14:02:30 (permalink)
    I don't have the time to dig it up, at the moment, but I thought there were a couple of apps out there that added that functionality to Sonar.
     
    I am in the middle of assisting my son market a bunch of beats he built - later on tonight, I will try to circle back, if nobody else has picked up on this for you.
     
    Bob Bone
     

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    John
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 14:34:22 (permalink)
    Personally I prefer the way Sonar does it. Reaper can do the send to another track and have a buss next to a track. I find that confusing. Also for that to be true Reaper makes no distinction as to what is a buss and a track. It also makes no distinction between audio and MIDI tracks. 
     
    With Sonar I can easily follow the signal even if I have never seen the project before. With Reaper it becomes a lot more difficult at least for me. 

    Best
    John
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    Anderton
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 15:29:32 (permalink)
    There was a thread in here a while back from someone clever (sorry, can't remember who) about sending a bus into another track using an effect's sidechain capabilities. With many effects that have sidechain, there's often a way to monitor just the audio from the incoming bus. 
     
    Like John, I too prefer having buses and tracks segregated in different portions of the program. However, I do wish there were "bus folders" because I do a lot of multiband processing that requires multiple buses, and it can get messy pretty quickly. Fortunately, there's a simple workaround that makes multiband processing easier anyway.
     
    After I have the multiband processing set up as desired, I create a "super bus" and all the multiband processing bus outputs go to that bus (no sends necessary), whose output in turn goes to the master. Then I hide the multiband buses so they're out of the way. Even better, the "super bus" provides a master volume control for the other buses.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    konradh
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 17:42:53 (permalink)
    Whether it is right or wrong, I don't know, but I have always felt I was supposed to leave Master at 0 unless fading out (or in). I guess this comes from working on multi-track tape machines and analog consoles that are tweaked so that 0 on the console is 0 on the multi-track tape machine which is zero on the 2-track master. For that reason, if a mix is overal 1 db too loud (for example), I adjust all the other buses that feed Master slightly until I have the level right and I leave Master locked on 0.
     
    1-If it is OK to change Master (and I don't know of a reason that it wouldn't be), it would be a lot easier just to make a slight adjustment there to get the peak level where I want it.
    2-If not OK to mess with Master, then the super-bus is a good idea for that.
     
    For the record, I normally send everything to a bus (Vocals, Harmonies, Guitars, Keyboards, Strings, etc.).  Even if there is just one instrument in a category (like Bass), I still create a bus.  My thought is that once I have all the fader movements set, I can easily adjust the overall level at the bus.  (This prevents me from having to use the dreaded Offset function.)

    Konrad
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    #7
    Razorwit
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 18:53:12 (permalink)
    I've always thought it would be nice for Sonar to have a customizeable section display. I generally like having busses in a different pane, but sometimes it would be really nice to have a bus next to the tracks that feed it. For example, snare top and snare bottom going to a "snare" bus right next to the tracks, and then the "snare" bus going to a "drums" bus in the bus pane.
     
    One way to do that would be to allow users to create as many panes as they want and then have what they want where they want. If there were default locations that specified that tracks go to pane 1 and busses go to pane 2, it would allow current functionality to be maintained for users that like it, but then would also allow people to put stuff where they want if they want something different. Allowing the creation of new panes would allow for further customization...say a bus pane for instrument stems and then another pane for busses that go to a mixer.
    Anyway, just something that I always thought would be nifty...it would allow new functionality while still maintaining current behavior.
     
    To the OP - there isn't a way to have busses be anywhere but the bus pane with Sonars current functionality, but there may be hacks.
     
    Dean

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    #8
    John
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 19:35:57 (permalink)
    Because of the color code with buses and the dependent tracks with X3, its a lot easier to know where things are going. 

    Best
    John
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    bitflipper
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 23:25:06 (permalink)
    SONAR is and always has been modeled after the classic recording setup, where tracks are tracks and busses are busses and no one would ever confuse the two.
     
    Personally, I like it that way.
     
    There are, however, good arguments for Reaper's approach in which there is no distinction between a track and a bus. They've cut the cord to the old paradigm. Those of us who started out with tape and consoles are a dwindling minority now, so it doesn't really make sense to keep up the (increasingly tortured) analogy anymore.


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    John
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 23:37:32 (permalink)
    bitflipper
    SONAR is and always has been modeled after the classic recording setup, where tracks are tracks and busses are busses and no one would ever confuse the two.
     
    Personally, I like it that way.
     
    There are, however, good arguments for Reaper's approach in which there is no distinction between a track and a bus. They've cut the cord to the old paradigm. Those of us who started out with tape and consoles are a dwindling minority now, so it doesn't really make sense to keep up the (increasingly tortured) analogy anymore.


    It does work well enough. It has served me well.

    Best
    John
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    Anderton
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/11 23:56:35 (permalink)
     
    I think the primary old school paradigm that's being broken is the expectation that buses will have lots of inputs. If you're using buses for reverb, headphone mixes, etc. then having them stuck in the middle of a bunch of tracks is arguably more chaotic then having them segregated into their own little world. But if you're using buses in a more tactical fashion, like the example I gave above of using multiband processing (or what happens a lot with remixes), separating them from the sources complicates matters considerably. If I want to do multiband processing with three tracks, and do my usual four-band separation, that's 12 buses I have to deal with....it would be more convenient to put them in track folders, although the "super bus" workaround mentioned previously helps a lot.
     

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    sharke
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/12 00:27:02 (permalink)
    I must admit I find it a little confusing in Pro Tools videos where they're freely mixing the buses up with the tracks. And I speak as someone who has no "old school" experience with consoles. 
     
    I don't find the separation inconvenient like TMG does. If it's just the strip controls you're looking to adjust (fader, pan, mute, solo etc), then the inspector has both the track and its send bus side by side. If you have more than one send, then clicking on the relevant send controls on the track will make that bus appear next to the track. Try it. 
     
    And if you want to edit their respective ProChannels side by side then you can do that in the console view by positioning the track to the left of the curtain, and the bus to the right. 

    James
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    TMG
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/12 09:24:15 (permalink)
    Thanks guys. Some really helpful insight there. I think maybe I came across in a way I did not intend to - don't get me wrong, most of the time I really like having the busses separate from the tracks. For the purposes of, for example, sending the drum kit ultimately through a single bus it's brilliant. But I would love to have the option of doing something like Razorwit mentioned because I sometimes use busses to create an entirely new 'part' where it makes more sense in my head to have it right alongside all the other 'parts'. Of course, it's entirely possible that if I had the functionality I'd end up just banging my head on the desk in confusion, but I'd like to be free to try it out. robert_e_bone I'd be really keen to know what that third party app was if you don't mind taking the time to find out, much appreciated.
     
    Anderton I find myself using the 'super bus' idea quite a lot (for example sending all of my synths through a bunch of dark corners and then finally to one bus!), it's great for quick and easy control of what would end up as the 'stems' I guess.
     
    Sharke your post enlightened me to something as I rarely find myself using the inspector for much more than naming clips etc.. I will definitely check that out because it may well go towards solving my irritation.

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    57Gregy
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/12 09:35:55 (permalink)
    I have never used screensets being a novice with X3, but would it be possible to have 1 screenset of the console with just the tracks, and another console screenset with just the buses floating above it?

    Greg 
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    codamedia
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/12 09:43:33 (permalink)
    bitflipper
    SONAR is and always has been modeled after the classic recording setup, where tracks are tracks and busses are busses and no one would ever confuse the two.
     
    Personally, I like it that way.

     
    +1, my thoughts exactly.
    I use another DAW on occasion that does things the "new way"... I just end up moving things around and color coding them so they are kept separate.
     

    Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
     

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    Anderton
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/12 10:40:02 (permalink)
    TMG
    Sharke your post enlightened me to something as I rarely find myself using the inspector for much more than naming clips etc.. I will definitely check that out because it may well go towards solving my irritation.



    I've only recently started taking advantage of all the Inspector has to offer (took me a while, eh?). It has many unique talents that complement Console and Track views.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    jm24
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/16 09:45:45 (permalink)
    Wad Bittflipper wrote.
     
    Buttttttttt
      
    Sonar the Reaper way sorta:
     
    Should be:
    A track folder has changeable default property settings 
    Can be set to output/send all tracks in folder to same bus // separate buses, no bus
    When a track folder is created it creates a "track-folder" bus, according to the track-folder defaults
    Then All tracks/lanes added/copied to the folder will output to the designated bus and sends of the folder
    Or create a new bus for the new track
    Or not
     
     
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    Kylotan
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    Re: Sends & Busses - Stupid Question? 2014/08/18 11:01:08 (permalink)
    Personally I find the Sonar way quite restrictive. Either it could be like Pro Tools (can arrange the buses in with tracks), or Reaper (tracks and buses are pretty much the same), or Logic (you can treat a track folder much like a bus), but to not have any of those options and therefore to have all grouped processing done away from the tracks themselves is a hassle for me.

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