Problem Importing Wav Files

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gswitz
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2014/08/17 08:20:43 (permalink)

Problem Importing Wav Files

The files I recorded yesterday are 5 hours and twenty minutes long.
 
When I import them into Sonar, I only get 1 hour and 11 minutes.
 
What's up?
 
This is the file size of each WAV
5.15 GB (5,531,900,582 bytes)
24/96
 
When I play back the files in VLC Media Player, I can hear the complete files.
 
I can send the files to anyone who wants to help using Gobbler.
post edited by gswitz - 2014/08/17 08:27:59

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#1

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    gswitz
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 08:42:32 (permalink)
    Only way I can find to deal with this issue is to play back the files 1 at a time and loop back the audio through the interface and re-record it into Sonar.
     
    Can this possibly be true?
     
    I've started recording the files into Sonar, I just can barely believe it. Maybe I should use Ardour to cut the audio up into little chewable bites for Sonar. That might work faster than playing it all back through the interface and lining it up again myself because Sonar chokes on the files.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #2
    sock monkey
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 08:57:08 (permalink)
    Stereo files are easy to work with in a Wave Editor. I use Wave Lab. There are a few free editors that would work like Gold Wave or Wavosaur. 
     
    http://www.wavosaur.com/download.php
     
    If all your doing is editing the levels and chopping up a wave editor is a better tool. Most of mine will use Sonars VST plug ins too. 

    Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
    Singer Songwriter, Solo Performer, Acoustic Duo and semi pro Sound Monkey.   
      
    #3
    gswitz
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 09:07:20 (permalink)
    @Sock Monkey
     
    First, Thanks for replying! Second, I tried the 64 bit version of Wavosaur and I get an error 'Unable to Load File ...' then the file name.
     
    These are mono files.
     
    I could have easily saved the files at intervals during the day if I knew Sonar couldn't import files longer than an hour. I've been using Sonar a long time and I can't remember bumping my head on this constraint.
     
    Or maybe I have. Hmmm. I remember one case where I had to open an RME file on a different computer and export it differently to get the 'whole' file. I remember reporting it to RME thinking that it was a bug between the two versions of DigiCheck, but now I'm wondering whether it wasn't Sonar all along.
     
     
    post edited by gswitz - 2014/08/17 10:35:53

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #4
    scook
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 10:42:57 (permalink)
    I have found references to two wave file formats which support large files. RF64 and W64. I have read RME DIGICheck creates RF64 files. SONAR only supports W64 format. Not sure about Wavosaur. Waveshop lists RF64 as supported, I believe foobar2000 and Audacity do too. FWIW, I found the 64bit version of Wavosaur not as stable as the 32bit version but don't believe that is the issue in this case.
    #5
    gswitz
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 10:55:15 (permalink)
    Thanks, Scook. I'll install Audacity on my windows box. I've had a little trouble moving the files to my Linux box b/c of file system incompatibilities for large files. I usually pass files like this using a Fat32 partition to the Linux drive, but that isn't working. I'll bet Audacity will support it.
     
    Thanks for helping me through it!!

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #6
    Anderton
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 11:02:52 (permalink)
    This list of file converters might help.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #7
    gswitz
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 11:42:57 (permalink)
    I've used digicheck with Sonar so many times. I guess I never noticed a need to convert the digicheck wave files before. I must have needed to. Perhaps, I was recording at lower sample rates and shorter sessions. So if I record at 48, maybe the session can be 2 hours and 20 minutes long before Sonar starts ignoring the extra data. I'm not sure. Strikes me as strange that Sonar imports of lots of the data without issue, but then stops before reading to the end of the file.
     
    Currently, I'm trying to export the files as FLAC 24 from Audacity and import them into Sonar in this format.
     
    Does Sonar have to pay extra to support RF64, kinda like MP3, where most people don't need it and it would bump up the cost of the program for everyone?
     
    I haven't noticed a way in RME DigiCheck to export the files as anything more specific than single channel wav files.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #8
    Anderton
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 11:55:26 (permalink)
    W64 is the better of the two formats, which I assume is why Sonar supports it. From Bjorn Roche's blog:
    • Wave64, aka Sony Wave64, originally developed by Sonic Foundry before 2003, is an open standard and a true 64-bit format: all 32-bit fields are replaced with 64-bit fields, and all chunks are 8-byte word aligned. Instead of the dreaded FourCC it uses GUID. Other than that, it is pretty much the same as WAV, so the spec is barely 4 pages long, although in my opinion it could stand to be a bit longer, as many aspects of WAV are so poorly devised it really wouldn't hurt for someone to put it all in one place. Some people have criticized the use of GUID on the grounds that there will never be that many chunks, but this misses the point: the point of using GUIDs is that anyone can define their own chunk without having to check with Sony or register a chunk ID. It's actually rather clever.
    • RF64 was proposed in 2005 by the EBU with full knowledge of Wave64. Although the proposal stated basic requirements that could have easily been met by a few minor extensions to Wave64, and they stated a desire to "join forces" with the developers of Wave64, they made no effort to do so other than to say they hoped they'd be involved. Moreover, the same document proposes RF64 as an alternative, incompatible 64-bit extension to the WAV format. Unlike Wave64, RF64 is not a true 64-bit format. All existing "chunks" remain 32-bit, so, for example, markers, regions and loops will no longer work past a certain number of samples. Even EBU's levl chunk will not work with RF64 because it uses a 32-bit address for pointing to the "peak-of-peaks" in the raw data. RF64 offers the much made-of promise of backwards compatibility via a "junk chunk", but, of course, this is possible with Wave64 as well, as pointed out in the Wave64 spec.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #9
    gswitz
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 12:00:19 (permalink)
    Sonar will not import the FLAC files I've exported from Audacity.
     
    I went to install one of the apps in the list that Craig posted, but it wanted admin privileges, and it is my DAW. I'm starting to get nervous. I only record 2 files so in 11 or 12 hours, I play the audio into Sonar.
     
    It will work and I don't have to worry about what strange things I've installed. I'm not worried about Audacity, but I just don't know... I'm a nervous nelly when installing stuff.
     
    Thanks for the help. I'm going to take the long route and hope that Sonar supports RF wave files soon.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #10
    scook
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 12:03:24 (permalink)
    foobar2000 claims to read RF64 and write W64. So does Waveshop. Both are free and I believe they do not require elevated privileges. foobar2000 is primarily a playback tool, Waveshop is an audio editor. While I have used both program I have no experience with RF64 to W64 conversion.
    post edited by scook - 2014/08/17 12:12:49
    #11
    gswitz
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 12:05:17 (permalink)
    Anderton
    W64 is the better of the two formats, which I assume is why Sonar supports it.



    Craig, I totally understand that Sonar has to pick it's battles and for it's own recording it makes sense that it uses W64.
     
    I'm just bummed that I can't even import the files because Sonar isn't reading to the end of the file. It imports a bunch of it. It just bags out before it gets to the end.
     
    The hassle for me is non trivial, although similar to exporting files from my old Tascam recorder. It's basically a real time export, one file at a time.
     
    If it really starts to bug me, I'll find another way. I'll bet there are other ways to do this. Right now, I just want access to my recordings.
     
    And yes, I'm disappointed that I'm inconvenienced by this. I'm not usually. In the future, I'll just stop and save progress at short intervals.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #12
    scook
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 12:06:53 (permalink)
    gswitz
     
    I'm just bummed that I can't even import the files because Sonar isn't reading to the end of the file. It imports a bunch of it. It just bags out before it gets to the end.
     

    It appears to be importing the initial 32bit chunk of the file and has no idea there is more data.
    post edited by scook - 2014/08/17 12:17:49
    #13
    Anderton
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 12:19:49 (permalink)
    scook
    gswitz
     
    I'm just bummed that I can't even import the files because Sonar isn't reading to the end of the file. It imports a bunch of it. It just bags out before it gets to the end.
     

    It appears to be importing the initial 32bit chunk of the file and had no idea there is more data.




    That's the problem with RF64. It's not a true 64-bit standard; as it says in the blog post quoted above:
     
    "All existing 'chunks' remain 32-bit, so, for example, markers, regions and loops will no longer work past a certain number of samples. Even EBU's levl chunk will not work with RF64 because it uses a 32-bit address for pointing to the 'peak-of-peaks' in the raw data."
     
    So basically, the reason why Sonar isn't reading to the end of the file is because the RF64 specification can't communicate to Sonar that the end exists. Why the EBU chose RF64 over the Sony format, which is open, free, works better, and was introduced prior to RF64 remains a mystery...other than the usual "not invented here" syndrome.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #14
    scook
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 12:29:45 (permalink)
    Anderton
    So basically, the reason why Sonar isn't reading to the end of the file is because the RF64 specification can't communicate to Sonar that the end exists.

    This is a little backward. The reason SONAR is not reading to the end of the file is because SONAR does not understand the format, not because the RF64 specification or the audio file has failed in any way. At least from what I can tell from the info in this this thread.
    #15
    gswitz
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 12:48:36 (permalink)
    Scook,
    Using Wave Shop I've managed to convert them to W64.

    Thanks for your help (and Everyone Else)!
     
    I'm back working way sooner than I would have been otherwise.
     
    I'm very grateful.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #16
    Anderton
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 13:16:00 (permalink)
    scook
    Anderton
    So basically, the reason why Sonar isn't reading to the end of the file is because the RF64 specification can't communicate to Sonar that the end exists.

    This is a little backward. The reason SONAR is not reading to the end of the file is because SONAR does not understand the format, not because the RF64 specification or the audio file has failed in any way. At least from what I can tell from the info in this this thread.




    You could very well be right, but what I got from Bjorn Roche's post is that the 32-bit format for the chunks limits the ability of the format itself to express markers, levels, loops, etc. past a certain number of samples. It seems that might be related to Sonar being able to work with only a certain number of samples. 

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #17
    scook
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 13:40:12 (permalink)
    Rather than confuse the issue with a discussion of the merits of W64 vs. RF64, determining EOF does not appear to be a problem for programs supporting RF64. Maybe someday SONAR will support RF64 import. Until that time, a third party utility is necessary for converting RF64 files to W64.
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    Anderton
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 13:49:21 (permalink)
    scook
    Rather than confuse the issue with a discussion of the merits of W64 vs. RF64, determining EOF does not appear to be a problem for programs supporting RF64. Maybe someday SONAR will support RF64 import. Until that time, a third party utility is necessary for converting RF64 files to W64.



    Agreed, but I do think it's important to mention that if you work with large files and have a choice between W64 and RF64, you're probably better off choosing W64. I've been using it since it was introduced for Sound Forge and have found it to be a pretty universal answer.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    Anderton
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 14:16:02 (permalink)
    My bad. I thought DigiCheck could export W64 files because I got a lot of google hits on W64 export RME. But on closer inspection, they were threads by people who were looking for ways to export W64 files from DigiCheck, or had written format translation routines because they couldn't open files in Wavelab, Nuendo, etc. 

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #20
    gswitz
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/17 14:53:40 (permalink)
    The import for RF64 works up to a point. It just has limitations.
     
    So, for those recording shows to RF64, if you save off the file once an hour, you can import directly into Sonar without the extra step.  It's only for us lazy bones who record for five and half hours without hitting stop that it's an issue.
     
    Here's an MP3 from yesterday...
    http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20140816_CowFest2_22_CravenChokePuppy_JusticeTonight.mp3
     
    This was done with the mid-side technique, using a mono mic aimed at the stage and a figure 8 pattern mic next to it.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #21
    Paul P
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/18 10:27:05 (permalink)
    gswitz
     
    It's only for us lazy bones who record for five and half hours without hitting stop that it's an issue.
     



    I could never trust that nothing would go wrong over such a long period of time.  The world isn't that reliable .
    I'd do it in chunks just to make sure I didn't lose everything when lightning hit.
     

    Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
    #22
    gswitz
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    Re: Problem Importing Wav Files 2014/08/18 11:48:22 (permalink)
    I'm not sure saving at intervals will protect you from lightning.

    Digicheck amazingly doesn't lose audio even if you pull the plug. I've tried it.

    I don't know how, but it isn't necessary with digicheck to save at intervals to protect from power failure.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #23
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