Creating MIDI loops from real drums

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gtrgriff3
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2014/08/19 17:06:44 (permalink)

Creating MIDI loops from real drums

I've been a cakewalk user since the beginning (literally, version 1) but this is something that for whatever reason I've never tried to do...
 
I use a lot of loops from Groove Monkee with either BFD or, now that it's part of X3, AD2. They work very well for my purposes but I have hours and hours of tracks from my drummer that I would love to turn into similar type loops.
 
I've looked a little at how to do drum replacement in general and have done a couple of tests that worked out OK.
 
But what I need to know is the bird's eye view of the steps involved in going from "here's a drum track that, while it has a click track in the recording, is not synced to sonar's timeline" to "here is a bunch of cool loops I can choose from."
 
I probably don't need a huge amount of detail as I can search out the details if I know what I'm looking for. Thanks in advance for your help on this. It seems like it should be very possible if I know where to start.
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    Anderton
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/19 18:27:15 (permalink)
    I haven't tried using Melodyne Editor's polyphonic options yet, but possibly that could break the individual drums out to individual tracks, which you could then convert to MIDI by dragging the region FX into MIDI tracks.
     
    As most loops are relatively short, it shouldn't be too hard to have them follow tempo for long enough to do the loop, then tweak any residual timing issues.
     
    I realize this sounds a little like Monty Python's "how to play the flute" skit ("blow into this end, then put your fingers over the holes to make melodies") but it just might be that simple. I'm curious now, so if there's time I'll try to do the Melodyne thing later and see if it works.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #2
    gtrgriff3
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/19 19:50:51 (permalink)
    Oh sorry, I was not clear, I already have the drums on individual tracks (kick, snare, tom1, tom2, and overhead.)
    The only tricky one would be the overhead and I could program that one in if I had to.
    Being that I want to convert it to MIDI, do I need to create a loop or just a 4 bar phrase, for example, in order for AD2 to pick it up?
    #3
    jb101
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/19 20:00:12 (permalink)
    Using Melodyne's polyphonic option won't separate out individual kit pieces very well from an entire drum "performance".  You would need to have individual tracks/mics for the various kit pieces.
     
    If you have separate tracks for snare/bass/hi-hat etc., then make sure you have minimised "bleed", with a gate or manually, then convert them with Melodyne etc.  I guess you have tried this if "I've looked a little at how to do drum replacement in general and have done a couple of tests that worked out OK."
     
    As for aligning the performances with Sonar's grid, it may be worth watching "Fast Biker Boys" videos on youtube about extracting a tempo map.
     
    HTH

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    jb101
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/19 20:04:46 (permalink)
    gtrgriff3
    Oh sorry, I was not clear, I already have the drums on individual tracks (kick, snare, tom1, tom2, and overhead.)
    The only tricky one would be the overhead and I could program that one in if I had to.
    Being that I want to convert it to MIDI, do I need to create a loop or just a 4 bar phrase, for example, in order for AD2 to pick it up?




    Ooops, I was writing my post as you replied.
     
    I don't really use AD2, but AFAIK you will only need to create a e.g. 4 bar phrase, and then put it somewhere that AD2 will see it.
     
    Someone else will be along with more experience with this soon, no doubt.

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    #5
    sock monkey
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/19 21:51:03 (permalink)
    When I did this I used audio snap to convert the Audio into a MIDI note. Works great on Kick, Snare, toms but not so good on the rest. 

    Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
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    sharke
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/20 14:53:48 (permalink)
    What I don't understand is, Melodyne can't turn a polyphonic drum loop into a MIDI track because it can't identify the different drums in the loop, but when I slice a drum loop in Geist it does a great job of categorizing the slices into kick, snare, hat etc. Or maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges.

    James
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    #7
    auto_da_fe
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/20 15:43:12 (permalink)
    I think there is a product called drumagog that does exactly this ?
     
    Takes drum audio and spits out midi ?
     
    JR

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    #8
    jb101
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/20 19:54:33 (permalink)
    sharke
    What I don't understand is, Melodyne can't turn a polyphonic drum loop into a MIDI track because it can't identify the different drums in the loop, but when I slice a drum loop in Geist it does a great job of categorizing the slices into kick, snare, hat etc. Or maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges.



    I've not used Geist, but since Melodyne Editor works with pitch, then I do think that you are comparing apples and oranges.
     
    From the brief tests I have carried out in response to this thread, Melodyne will work as long as individual kit pieces play don't play simultaneously. 
     
    I will have a further play with it, but I think it will end up more hassle than it is worth.
     
    Use the right tool for the right job, I guess.
     
    Geist may be able to tell a hi-hat from a "toppy" snare.  Melodyne Editor will be able to pick out a Bbb from an Ab7b9#5 chord on my mandocello.

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    #9
    bluzdog
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/20 20:10:18 (permalink)
    You could use Melodyne, Audiosnap, Slate Digital Trigger or whatever strikes your fancy for the kick, snare and what ever else is close mic'd. If need be you could program the hi-hat. I think you can pull off the overheads for hi-hat, toms and cymbals in Melodyne Editor by cloning tracks and judicious editing.
     
    Rocky
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    Anderton
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/20 21:00:42 (permalink)
    sharke
    What I don't understand is, Melodyne can't turn a polyphonic drum loop into a MIDI track because it can't identify the different drums in the loop, but when I slice a drum loop in Geist it does a great job of categorizing the slices into kick, snare, hat etc. Or maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges.



    Very different. Geist is time-based, Melodyne is frequency-based. If two events occur at the same time in Geist, Geist will create a slice at that time but not differentiate between the two events. It will treat the two events as a single event occurring at a specific time.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    sharke
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/20 22:02:38 (permalink)
    Yeah I understand that Melodyne uses frequency but when Geist slices a loop, it categorizes the slices as kick, snare, hat or percussion. It must be using frequency to do that, correct? You're right it will probably miscategorize if there are two hits at once, but you'd think Melodyne would be able to take some kind of stab at separating the hits in a drum loop. Granted it would be meaningless to translate those hits to "correct" MIDI pitches, but I'm sure they could  translate them to arbitrary pitches so that at least you have separated hits you could move to the correct MIDI note for your kit. It would just be a "polyphonic" version of their percussive algorithm.

    James
    Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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    bluzdog
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/21 08:49:38 (permalink)
    Celemony has some fantastic Melodyne videos on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8aRt6FfDKo&index=22&list=UU3t_a653QeuXOhqVYWT9Quw shows pitch to midi for close mic'd tracks with bleed. You could use a similar technique for hi-hat. In polyphonic mode the blinds are useful for isolating frequencies. You could try eq'ing and/or a gate with a side chain to isolate the frequencies before you load them into Melodyne. This is a cool thread and worthy endeavor. With some experimenting I'm sure a reasonable workflow can be achieved.
    You could even shoot Celemony support an email, they seem pretty helpful.
     
    Rocky
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    Anderton
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/08/21 09:52:03 (permalink)
    auto_da_fe
    I think there is a product called drumagog that does exactly this ?
     
    Takes drum audio and spits out midi ?
     



    Yes, and it's quite effective but the full version isn't cheap....fortunately the basic version does what most people need. Here's a review that appeared in Tape Op.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    gtrgriff3
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/09/04 14:47:21 (permalink)
    Thanks everyone... great suggestions. I got the Pro version of Melodyne and will continue playing around with it. So far it's not the most intuitive thing for me so I'm actually going to have to sit down and watch all the videos :)
    #15
    jm24
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    Re: Creating MIDI loops from real drums 2014/09/04 17:07:49 (permalink)
    Extracting tempo from audio and setting the project tempo is still a Sonar weakness.
     
    The click track will be helpful to determine the tempo for sonar to use.
     
    Using short audio clips/project will be easiest to adjust tempo until all feels good with the sonar metronome. Use the click track and metronome to work on this. Then add the audio drum clips to be sure.
     
    Important to make sure all tracks are trimmed the same at beginning and end (zoom in to determine no part of any loop is beyond a measure boundary), save as to new project name, bounce clips, save,....
     
    (I start all projects on 2nd/3rd measure to have access to the first beat adjustments and any intro stuff.)
     
    After bounce check clip/measure boundaries again. Excess is not allowed. You may have to add space.
     
    Since the tracks are separate, using audio snap to extract midi and paste to midi track will work fine. Be aware, all extracted notes are the same note values. (My experience using only for single percussion clips.)
     
    If you want to combine the midi tracks you will need to change the midi note number (using transpose) for each track to correspond with standard note values for drums.  CAL scripts can also be used for this.
     
    Then, properly trim the clips if needed, bounce, and create loops. Making them groove clips will allow sonar to adjust them for timing and pitch.
     
    The files will be located in the audio folder for the project. I copy them to folders in the samples folder.
     
    -------------------------------------------
    Some swear by PT Beat detective.  I know nothing, nothing!
     
    Some Reaper bits:
     
    This is a tool I will now obtain to determine tempos:
    http://www.virtualdj.com/products/virtualdj/price.html
    I have imported audio from dozens of 4 track tapes, and cassettes. I find sonar AS does not provide consistent tempo detection between tracks.
     
    Forum thread:
    http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=139020&highlight=extract+tempo+from+audio
     
    A good video demonstration that is "similar" to Sonar, in some ways, for working with long clips:
    http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=14737&highlight=extract+tempo+from+audio
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