Gain Issues - I don't get it?

This is an issue I've been struggling with for a while. Maybe someone here can shine a light on it for me?
 
I often run into a problem where the signal is too hot coming into the PC76 compressor. Nothing I do seems to be able to reduce the level yet still allow me compression. It seems that frequently, regardless of how much I lower the gain coming into it, raising the PC76's input to setup the threshold, returns the gain to a (red) overload...
 
What's the secret here?
 
Thanks...
Keni
 

It could be the signal it not very dynamic and in order to have a trip of the threshold you have to increase the signal too much.  In this case a compressor may not be appropriate.  

John
It could be the signal it not very dynamic and in order to have a trip of the threshold you have to increase the signal too much.  In this case a compressor may not be appropriate.  

Thanks John...
 
I'm using it on a percussive organ which has very definite peaks. In the past I've used a compressor this way so that I like how it sits in track better....
 
And even if there were no peaks.... How can the signal be too low to trigger the compression (threshold) yet too loud for it's input? that just doesn't make sense...?
 
Keni
 

CJaysMusic
Use your ears and not the PC76's meters as they may not be reliable. I can hear compression being done to a signal going into that compressor and the meters hardly ever read. so there you go.
 
Does it happen with other compressors? Gain settings (dB levels) are all relative, so you may need to do and have different db values for each instruemtn going into the compressor.
 
CJ

Thanks CJ...
 
Yes, I've seen this as well... Sometimes the event is faster than the display can mimic....
 
I can use other compressors, but most of the compressors I use have a threshold control, so this doesn't ever occur... I guess I can try one of the S-type compressors (I believe there's one that uses input and net a threshold control), but this still doesn't explain my area of concern...
 
How can signal be so low as to barely move the PC76's meter, yet overloading the input???
 
Using my ears? I am always doing that... and I don't hear the distortion that is being displayed by the PC in many cases... Maybe my ear? I do my best to eliminate any overs even if I can't hear them as I believe the summation of many such will tend to cloud the final sound...
 
this was much easier in the analog world.... I don't remember ever having cases where low signal overloaded the input of any devices I used... It always showed as loud (high on device's meter) if it was overloading...
 
Keni
 

Are you sure the signal's too hot coming in and not too hot coming out? What happens when you turn down the output on the compressor? Is the light still lit red? If it has a fixed threshold then obviously that threshold should not "overload" the ProChannel.

sharke
Are you sure the signal's too hot coming in and not too hot coming out? What happens when you turn down the output on the compressor? Is the light still lit red? If it has a fixed threshold then obviously that threshold should not "overload" the ProChannel.

Thanks Sharke...
 
Exactly my point. The PC76 is first in the chain, it's LED is the only one showing any overs... Lowering the output gain of it doesn't change the LED reading...
 
Keni
 

Maybe the original hardware had a lower threshold for the clip indicator, and the virtual version models that. Or maybe someone entered the wrong number in the code.
 
If the waveform doesn't look clipped, don't worry about it 

You can also have initial dynamic peaks that register on a peak meter, but the initial peak is too quick for some types of compressors to start reacting. It starts indicating compression when you increase the input because more of the "average" signal below the initial or higher peak causes the compression to kick in. So you end up shoving the peaks too high in order to make the compressor react to the part of the signal that has a enough higher average or rms value to make the compressor kick in.
 
This is not uncommon in "character" compressors at all. Many vari-mu type compressors act this way. The EMI RS124 even has a hold function that requires you, in some cases (depending on the source), to hit the compressor with the proper signal level, and then hold the compressor at that amount of compression while the track is restarted, until the initial peak kicks in. Then release the hold so the compressor starts reacting properly to the signal. If any long drops in signal occur within the track, the compressor must be put into hold again until the signal comes back in.
 
You can try this yourself with a compressor using the attack, release, and threshold settings. Just increase the attack time. You'll find it takes an increasingly lower threshold (or higher input) to get the same amount of compression, the more you increase the attack time. The initial peak is too fast for the compressors attack time. This will all vary depending on the source and its dynamics.
 
Hmmm... now that I look at the PC76, it does have an attack setting. So you still have this problem using the fastest attack, and an appropriate release time for the material?
 
I don't know if this is the case with the PC76 (I never use ProChannel). If it is, use a peak limiter just before the compressor so that it clips off the quick overs, but the threshold of the peak limiter is too high to affect any of the rest of the signal. Then only the PC76 would compress the rest or majority of the signal, and add its "character" to the track.