Perfect mix goes bad with volume

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revnice1
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2014/08/31 12:36:54 (permalink)

Perfect mix goes bad with volume

I have a great mix but when I turn up the overall volume (monitor volume) drums become disproportionately loud.
 
How do I control that? 
 
Thanks - rev
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    bitflipper
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    Re: Perfect mix goes bad with volume 2014/09/01 10:41:59 (permalink)
    I think you've stumped everyone with that one, rev. Are we talking about small or large volume changes? Turning up the monitors by, say, 3 dB shouldn't change the mix enough to notice. But a large increase could, due to the way speakers respond differently at high versus low volume. The effects of room acoustics can become more significant at high volume, too. 
     
    Do you experience the same phenomenon with headphones?
     
    Assuming it's due to the playback system and/or room, all you can do is follow the same general approach that you do for making a mix translate to different listening environments and playback systems: aim for the statistical middle. Rather than adjusting the mix to sound best at low volume, or at high volume, adjust it for a compromise that sounds acceptable - but not necessarily ideal - at either extreme. It's the same concept as adjusting low frequencies until they're adequate for bass-light sound systems but not overwhelming on bass-heavy systems.
     
     
     


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    revnice1
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    Re: Perfect mix goes bad with volume 2014/09/01 14:17:56 (permalink)
    Since I posted, I've been wondering if it's because I still have the drum VI in the file. I've got used to working like that because as soon as I make a drum mix I want to tweak it. I'll have to test but it could be that the drum VI responds differently to volume than the final drum mix. 
     
    Even if that solves it (which I doubt) I'm still curious about this issue because I've experienced it when trying to master songs. I find that mastering changes the mix. It's not supposed to so I must be doing something wrong but I've never figured out what.
     
    Yes, I get the same results in headphones so the speakers used are only delivering what's happening, they're not the cause.
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    bitflipper
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    Re: Perfect mix goes bad with volume 2014/09/02 09:59:07 (permalink)
    It should not matter whether or not you've rendered the drum track. I, too, prefer to keep MIDI drums available for editing right up till the end of the project, or at least for as long as my wimpy computer can accommodate.
     
    Mastering does change the mix. That's normal. It's why even if you intend to send it out for someone else to master you still want to take a stab at it yourself first so you can identify what might need to be changed in the mix prior to mastering.
     
    Neither of these things should make the drums get disproportionately louder when you crank the overall volume.
     


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    sock monkey
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    Re: Perfect mix goes bad with volume 2014/09/02 11:06:37 (permalink)
    Funny there's a discussion along these lines on GS yesterday. 
     
    http://www.gearslutz.com/board/newbie-audio-engineering-production-question-zone/939158-mixing-low-level.html
     
    And as Dave is saying, there are a lot of tricks and methods to make your mix translate well on all playback systems. It's pretty common for newbies to struggle with this issue. It does take years of training to be able to balance a mix and get it right (or very close) the first time.
    I can't even explain why it always works for me, but I think the important part is I have used the same monitors for 20 years and they are obviously the right ones for me. 
     
    A few things I do. 
     
    My general mixing will be at a conservative listening volume. After reading that thread I'm going to dust off my old Radio shack Db meter and see , But my guess is this is around 80 Db. 
     
    I then listen at different levels and get up and move around, turn on the vacuum ( no bull) and turn on my sub for a loud listen. I fade to zero to check what is the loudest item in the mix. 
    I sometimes use headphones but I find it won't tell me anything my monitors didn't already tell me. If your headphones are telling more than your monitors then you need new monitors. 
     
    Put the album or song on a USB stick and go try a few other systems and listen in the Car on the way for beers. 
     
     
    post edited by sock monkey - 2014/09/02 11:07:48

    Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
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    lawp
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    Re: Perfect mix goes bad with volume 2014/09/02 12:06:59 (permalink)
    sock monkey
    Put the album or song on a USB stick and go try a few other systems and listen in the Car on the way for beers.

    this

    sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
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    revnice1
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    Re: Perfect mix goes bad with volume 2014/09/02 12:39:17 (permalink)
    Flipper:
    It could be that drums are really too loud but I just don't notice at low volume so I'm going to try Sock's suggestion - take the volume to 0 and as I increase it, see what appears first. BTW: How do you prevent mastering from changing the mix? Once I've spent many hours mixing, I don't want it changed!
     
    Sock:
    >Put the album or song on a USB stick and go try a few other systems and listen in the Car on the way for beers.
    All good ideas, especially the beer.
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    sock monkey
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    Re: Perfect mix goes bad with volume 2014/09/02 16:31:21 (permalink)
    Mastering is the final step in the chain before the song or album is released on any medium. There are even articles on mastering for iTunes. 
     
    A quick refresher in recording 101: 
     
    1-Recording session; where the bed tracks for the song are generated. Scratch vocals, a piano or rhythm guitar  and drums are the first thing normally. This could be a whole band, or you and a click track and guitar. ( note that in 1940 this was all you got ) 
    2- Overdubing; where you add way to many tracks to your song until it sounds worse than the original scratch tracks..:) . just kidding. 
    3- Editing; better known as Turd polishing. Hopefully the tracks were recorded properly in the first place and you don't need to much of this. Some people enjoy spending months on this part, not me. 
    4-Mixing; ( my favorite part) Balancing all the tracks so they can be heard in a musical way. Making the solos cut through. track EQ and adding effects. 
    But note. we are not to worry about overall volume and master EQ at this point. Get it close, but proceed to next step. Export that song with a safe overhead level. As wave file.
    5- Mastering;  Now you can optimize your mix using mastering tools like RMS level and some EQ if needed. Mastering is another art form that not everyone can expect to be brilliant at overnight. I use a dedicated wave editor for this ( Wave Lab) You really need the global analyzing tools to know where you stand in the real world these days. VU meters only tell you part of the story. 
    6- Replication and Format Conversion. Stomp out your CD's and batch convert to MP3 files for uploading. 
    7-Re mix- Hate what you've done and go back to step one. 

    Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
    Singer Songwriter, Solo Performer, Acoustic Duo and semi pro Sound Monkey.   
      
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