Returning to SONAR - Seeking help with Studio setup

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Choots
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2014/09/05 18:13:02 (permalink)

Returning to SONAR - Seeking help with Studio setup

Hi All, 
 
I wanted to start a thread to discuss my use of SONAR, my hardware search, platform upgrades, as well as my studio setup and how I should best leverage SONAR and hardware in my workflow - basically to collect my questions on various topics into one place.  If this is the wrong approach or in the wrong place, please forgive me - I beg your indulgence but I wanted to give some history below. If you don't want to read  it all, skip the Background section and go down to my Questions below.   I put this here because I'm using Sonar 8.5.3 presently.
 
Background
I'm a keyboard player/synth guy with a lot of gear, and a LONG time user of Cakewalk software - back to the Twelve Tone days with my first purchase of Cakewalk 1.1b for DOS.  I used that to make sequences for my band, editing them on a 486DX2 and loading them into a hardware sequencer for use in live gigs.  I was young and an early adopter.  I had the original Roland MPU-401c midi interface and even wrote software in Visual Pascal and Visual C to do some fun things with MIDI, sort of like The Anything Box (Does anyone remember that?  I still have the original discs and manual - a great piece of MIDI software).  Back when things were done through the mail, my original Twelve Tone customer number was somewhere in the mid 1500's.  I even won a Cakewalk T-shirt with a correct answer to a trivia question in the old paper newsletter. Anyway, I guess I have history, so I'm not really a newcomer to this place.
 
That started in the mid eighties, and I stayed with Cakewalk through v.4 using a MIDI Quest MQX-32M interface.  I got into Windows with Cakewalk Pro Audio, and was using ADATs and other digital gear, and then came Sonar - it seems I upgraded only to even numbered versions - no reason (unlike Star Trek  ;).  In the new millenium - I picked up the Frontier Dakota PCI card with a Tango 24.  At that time I was doing a lot of MIDI sequencing and song writing in my project studio, and tools worked pretty well.  I was even participating in the Cakewalk forums - which were different back in the day.
 
But then I started to drift away from it - I had a major life change moving from Canada to the US, and my time was taken up by other things.  I lost touch with what was happening in the synth world and in the pro-music equipment area in general.  I still upgraded SONAR, but I wasn't actively using it.  Life happened - maybe you know what I mean.
 
As I mentioned I had Sonar 2 and 4 and 6.0 (this was the last version I really used), and though I upgraded and had the Sonar 8.5 DVDs (the physical package, I never opened it).  You might find it strange that I've also upgraded to SONAR X1, and X2, but have not used them.  I'm not sure I even downloaded X2 yet... that's how behind I am.  I used to run windows XP on an old AMD Athlon XP, and of course that's woefully out of date.
 
Over the last year, singing in some choirs and playing with a couple bands, including a 25th year reunion with my original band has invigorated me and prompted me to get back into it.  So this week, I opened my Sonar 8.5 package and loaded it onto a Core2Duo machine I had sitting idle, and installed the Frontier Drivers to get the Dakota/Tango all working - I had some initial issue, but a reboot seems to have resolved that.  I installed all updates, and I've been reading through the Cake forums and trying to research things like hardware and the state of DAWs in general.  
 
 I'm seeing what's included in Sonar 8.5, and I'm thinking about upgrades to my DAW PC hardware, my Audio/MIDI hardware, and other gear, except for some keyboard gear that I use including my Yamaha Motif XS-8.   This also gets to how I should setup my studio again with respect to workflow and other audio hardware (mixers, outboard gear, etc.).  I'll have specific questions about all these topics, but now that my long-winded introduction is out of the way, I guess my first question relates to Audio Hardware.
 
Question(s)
My Frontier Dakota card doesn't have reliable Win7/8 drivers, so I'm looking at upgrading my Audio hardware to something pretty current that would run Win7 and have support for Win8 and beyond.    I'm assuming that PCIe will still be the best for low-latency Audio (and MIDI).  I think that low latency has become far more important, but I also need a good number of inputs.  Of course that implies that I'll move into Sonar X1 or X2 (or beyond, but I'm not in a big rush). 
 
I'm considering RME FireFace UFX, RME RAYDAT with a Lynx 8 channel ADA convertor -  or possibly a convertor/preamp interface, Motu 16A or Motu 1248 (although not for Windows yet?), Motu828x (older), and I would even consider the Behringer X32, as long as it could be used as an audio interface. I'm concerned about latency of Firewire versus PCIe, as well as longevity of driver support for older items like the RME RayDat, and Motu 828X.  The RayDat is PCIe, but an older piece, and the UFX and Motu 16A are Firewire.  So I'm looking for input on this, knowing that I'll likely have to also upgrade the PC to a much more current processor/MB with lots more memory and physical storage.  I know I'm going to have to spend some money, which is fine, but I'd probably like to be in the mid-range to low pro-end of budgets here, especially since I'll probably want to purchase additional plug ins and other software.
 
I've got a few synths, samplers, and other hardware sound modules, and may even add more, so I need more 12 or 14 inputs (stereo) not counting mic preamps.  Here's some things I think I need (or want):
  • PCIe for low latency (I could do PCI but can't count on this being there in my next motherboard)
  • Good drivers because I want PCIe; with long support timeframe
  • At least 16 Analog I/O - wouldn't mind some preamps to go along with this (8 Preamps would be nice for recording drums, but it's admittedly rare. I could probably live with 2 or 4.)
  • At least 24 simultaneous I/O from software
  • AES/EBU and SPDIF I/O
  • ADAT interfaces (at least 2 for 16 i/o - with SMUX)
  • 24-bit 96kHz/192kHz
  • 2 separate convertor boxes? (I assume anything with ADAT support will work - is it worth keeping my Tango 24?)
  • Mix software in the box (Like RME Totalmix)
  • 2 MIDI interfaces so I can run large numbers of matrixed modules (effectively 32 MIDI channels)
           - lowest possible latency in MIDI signals
           - Any sense in keeping the Dakota for MIDI even if I find something else that has good MIDI interface? 
 
 One thing complicating my thought process is that I used a Soundcraft Spirit Studio 24-8-2 with my gear - latency on monitoring wasn't a big issue because I was running mostly MIDI to these sound modules and mixing them live through the board before the PC - this was before I ran a lot of audio tracks out of the PC.  Now I'm thinking about whether and how best to employ a mixer in my setup. But with Soft synths, and VST effects, and way more audio tracks, more can get done in the box.  But it seems I would still need a mixer to combine my PC tracks and live MIDI output for mixdown.  I sometimes would like to have a mixer for live shows, but my Spirit studio is way larger than I really need, and it takes up too much real estate - maybe I would cross-grade to a smaller digital mixer if it could still be useful in the studio.  
 
 
So what suggestions would you have about the above audio interfaces as they relate to my configuration? And can I get away without a mixer knowing I have to use a lot of hardware with a Sonar DAW?  Or, put differently, how best could I use a mixer with what I've described?
 
Thanks for reading my long post.
 
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    bitflipper
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    Re: Returning to SONAR - Seeking help with Studio setup 2014/09/05 22:31:12 (permalink)
    Oh my, that's a lot of information to chew on - be patient because it may take a few days to get some good responses.
     
    But first off, welcome back! My own story is similar to yours, although I came back about 10 years ago. I started with Cakewalk for DOS 1.0, jumped back in at SONAR 4.
     
    I also struggled with what to do with my mixer. It took up too much real estate. But I soon discovered that I didn't need one at all. My audio interface was in fact a mixer, as most higher-end products are these days. So the console went into the closet and eventually was sold, and I don't miss it at all.
     
    If, however, you record live bands and constantly-changing instruments and microphones, then the mixer may still serve a purpose. But it sounds like you're more of a one-man-band type, in which case you can ditch the console and get a full-featured audio interface to be your hub. I just have all my external synths permanently plugged into the back of my interface through a wire harness (although my needs are more modest than yours; I only need 8 inputs).
     
    The RME would be a good choice, btw. The availability of PCIe products has been shrinking, as manufactures go to either USB or Firewire/USB hybrids to maximize their markets. Serial-connected interfaces do pretty well these days in terms of low latency, and have mostly closed the performance gap with PCIe devices. Zero-latency monitoring is a standard feature nowadays, so the only time latency really becomes a problem is when you're playing software synths and samplers in real time, especially MIDI drums where the sounds are coming from the computer.
     
    There are too many questions in your post to address them all in one reply, but I'll throw in a few of other comments:
     
    Scratch 192kHz off your requirements. Nobody records at 192kHz and it's not an indicator of quality. Some of the best interfaces you can buy specifically don't do 192 in order to be optimized for more widely-used sample rates.
     
    ADAT, EBU and S/PDIF are pretty standard now. Almost any decent interface priced $400 or more will have them. Even my inexpensive Focusrite has them all, plus a choice of RCA or lightpipe.
     
    24 inputs is a little more problematic, as it may require two interfaces and clocking one off the other. Just a little more hassle, though, and lots of people do it. The RME can do it. Most better interfaces can - just make sure they have an external clock I/O, as not all do.
     
    If you get two all-in-one interfaces, you'll have your 32 MIDI channels covered - as long as the MIDI port number can be configured. Not all of them can do this, as some are apparently hard-wired to port 0. 
     
    I'm sure somebody will be along soon with some RME experience to share. Lots of RME users here.
     
     
     
     


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    sock monkey
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    Re: Returning to SONAR - Seeking help with Studio setup 2014/09/06 09:04:08 (permalink)
    When people ask about new interfaces I always point them at this long running GS thread: 
    http://forum.dawbench.com/showthread.php?1548-Audio-Interface-Low-Latency-Performance-Data-Base/page13
     
    I book marked it at page 13 and it has been added to since. I would browse through the whole thing skipping the babble that gets interjected. It gives out some pretty important info about not only latency but other things you might want to elevate yourself about. Mostly it has a good shopping list of better quality interfaces you can go from there with Google. 
     
    I go back to the mid 80's too except I'm an old Atari guy. I used it intil 2005 when I switched to Cakewalk Guitar Studio. , I went Sonar 6-7,8.5 and waited out the bugs until X3e. 
    I wouldn't bother with X1 or 2, they had hundreds of bugs and they are mostly gone now with X3e. 
    Sonar 8.5 is still better than X1& 2. I would still be using it except I had a chance to upgrade to X3e Studio for only $99 and dove in. It's fine but they wrecked more things than they fixed for me. 
     
    I would think you would not really need to use your ADAT anymore, most of us with outboard multi track stopped using it a while ago.
     
    You mixer would solve the multi synth set up nicely
    I use my mixer for cue mixes and I have a few old Synth patched in as well . My interface is only 4 analog and I use the SPDIF from my 01V mixer for all those other inputs. I havn't used an outboard synth for a long time. There are just way to many better synths as VST now. 
     
    With a new system - W7 64bit or W 8.1 64 bit, you'll see a huge performance jump. 
    It's good to not fall too far behind or other issues start to come up that your hard pressed to get help with. 
     

    Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
    Singer Songwriter, Solo Performer, Acoustic Duo and semi pro Sound Monkey.   
      
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