De-essing?

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...wicked
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2014/09/21 00:12:25 (permalink)

De-essing?

I'm working on a mix and I've got some female vocals that have a super sharp sibilance I'm only just now noticing. Even with stacked de-essers and some creative EQ I just cannot get it tamed. The take is otherwise pretty killer, so I'd love to rescue it. Are there any other tricks I can try so it doesn't sound like my singer is singing while wearing a retainer? :-)
 

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    rebel007
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/21 02:01:45 (permalink)
    I've had a vocal with that exact same issue. Initially I tried a couple of de essers but they destroyed the overall sound when I applied the settings required to eliminate the sibilance. I also tried various compressors, sidechained to bring down the volume of the sibilant frequencies but these also couldn't get rid of the nasties without taking away frequencies that the track needed.
    In the end I took to surgically editing the waveform by hand. It took time and effort to get it right but it seemed the only way to get the results without destroying the good parts. If you really must keep the track, or can't record another take, then this may be an option for you.

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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/21 02:12:13 (permalink)
    I've always found automation combined with either a purpose built de-esser and/or a combination of a compressor and EQ fixes the extreme problems without touching the rest of the track simply because the extreme settings required are only "on" for a brief period.
     
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    chilldanny
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/21 08:22:26 (permalink)
    Often when cutting a particular frequency, it can actually give the impression that the octave frequencies above and below have been given a boost (depending on the frquency content of the material).  Cutting these octave frequencies can help tame the sibilance, and I've often found that using a linear phase EQ for such tasks work best.
     
    I've no doubt you're already well aware of this, but I thought it could be worth mentioning 
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    BlixYZ
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/21 08:47:22 (permalink)
    If it's just a single track (lead vocal) and you want it to sound amazing, do as stated above and edit the audio by selecting the esss and dropping the gain 3 or 6 db using process/audio/gain.
     
    I have also made a template for deessing with the sonitus multiband by squeezing all the bands to the upper end and disabling the lowest band.  This acts according to the source, only squashing the offending frequencies.  It's a smarter deesser.  I also use the tape emulator on 7.5, and the Ca2a with the screw hard left.  These combined with console emulator LATER in the chain (and maybe the gloss too) restore a very sweet, analog-like upper end to vocals.  
     
    Just remember, sometimes, it's actually faster! to edit each ess individually than to try countless plugins and settings.
     
    I feel your pain, de essing has been a 15 year battle for me.  I hate loud ess and harsh consonants.  I have no tolerance for them in my mixes.  many songs on the radio have too much for my taste.

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    michael japan
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/21 08:52:33 (permalink)
    I usually use an eq. (pre-compressor) and play around between 8k-16k. If it's more of a shhh- then a little lower helps between 2-6k. Raise and drop the frequencies one by one and see where the Ms. S's Is's.

    I then place a de-esser on that --and then add compression.
    I have had to cut and remake many times though as rebel007 said. But with SonarX3 smart tool drawing fades along with the eq/de-esser usually is enough.
    Sorry this is so long.
    After its all done, I usually give it a nudge at 12k to bring it back to life.

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    bitflipper
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/21 08:55:54 (permalink)
    Hand-edited automation envelopes are always the best place to start, but even that won't always solve the problem in extreme cases. For that, you have to go old-school and do it the way it was done before dedicated de-essers existed.
     
    Here's how to do it. Clone the vocal track. Apply a sharp high-pass filter to the clone, rolling off around 4KHz. Next, put on a compressor and smash the sh*t out of it with a low threshold and very high ratio. The clone track should now sound absolutely awful, with ear-piercing sibilance.
     
    Now route that track to the sidechain input of a compressor on the vocal bus. Start with a moderate ratio and gradually increase it until the essiness goes away.
     
    It's also a good idea to isolate a particularly bad "S" and analyze its frequency content. If it looks like white noise, you're good to go and the above method is guaranteed to work. But there are two scenarios that can be especially problematic: when there's comb filtering and when there's a narrow spike in the frequency response. If you need help with that analysis, email or PM me.
     
     


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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/21 09:03:51 (permalink)
    I'm working on a mix and I've got some female vocals that have a super sharp sibilance I'm only just now noticing. Even with stacked de-essers and some creative EQ I just cannot get it tamed. 

     
    If it's really essey you aren't going to get rid of it without hearing the tell tale signs of having gotten rid of it.
     
    The best way to deal with esses is to accept them as being part of the singer's singing and choose a mic, mic placement, and pre amp that doesn't turn them into ice picking.
     
    I've never heard a de-essing procedure that did anything and also sounded good.
     
     


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    Anderton
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/21 12:04:46 (permalink)
    Just as noise reduction is most effective with signals that don't have a lot of noise, de-essers are most effective with signals where the essing isn't too bad.
     
    Another option if you're going to take the manual route is split the clip where the de-essing occurs, and use clip gain to reduce the level and/or insert EQ as a clip FX to take off some high end.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    WallyG
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/21 12:56:27 (permalink)
    ...wicked
    I'm working on a mix and I've got some female vocals that have a super sharp sibilance I'm only just now noticing. Even with stacked de-essers and some creative EQ I just cannot get it tamed. The take is otherwise pretty killer, so I'd love to rescue it. Are there any other tricks I can try so it doesn't sound like my singer is singing while wearing a retainer? :-)
     


    I usually use Melodyne for De-essing. It's manual labor, but easy to do.
     
    Walt

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    #10
    ...wicked
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 01:40:10 (permalink)
    Thanks folks, will try!
     
    So those of you that say edit "by hand", you're talking manual gain adjustments right? I don't know what other things you might be talking about editing by hand.
     
    It's not the singer's voice, just to inform. I think it was just for that song the take was pretty hot, it's either close mic'd dead on sibilance or maybe even some input distortion. I'm going back in tomorrow for another whack at it.
     

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    Anderton
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 02:31:07 (permalink)
    Gain adjustments and possibly fades. If you use EQ as a clip effect, that's more manual adjustment. I would guess you'll get the best results with a mix of techniques with each contributing a slight improvement, which adds up to a bigger improvement.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    Anderton
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 02:31:07 (permalink)
    Gain adjustments and possibly fades. If you use EQ as a clip effect, that's more manual adjustment. I would guess you'll get the best results with a mix of techniques with each contributing a slight improvement, which adds up to a bigger improvement.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    BlixYZ
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 08:15:22 (permalink)
    ooh, I need to try melodyne for de essing.    Always forget about melodyne.
    yesterday i used it to adjust timing on a sloppy drum fill and it worked beautifully.  the kicker is, i was editing a bounced mix of the rhythm section.

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 08:22:05 (permalink)
    '...or maybe even some input distortion..."
     
    Easy to imagine, especially if it was one of those ultra-spec I.C. chip Preamps that make everything sound like sandpaper.


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    sock monkey
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 08:37:59 (permalink)
    I tool copy into Wave Lab and set up a narrow EQ, zoom in and apply. Yes this is called manual editing but Wave lab speeds the process up substantially because it's designed to do just these sort of tasks. I'll have to try Melodyne and see if it has the same ease of use. My computers not always up to running it. 

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    ...wicked
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 17:20:20 (permalink)
    I'm a Sound Forge guy myself, but I see your point. :-)
     
    The thing is, if I can't even get a de-esser to zap the troublesome freqs I don't see how EQ is going to help. I could live with the distortion in a general sense, but it makes the singer sound like she's lisping or has a retainer, and in the context of the mix really takes the meat of the take. But I'll try the various techniques (including that sidechain trick Bit!) and see what I can do!
     

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    ...wicked
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 20:16:29 (permalink)
    Blarg! Okay I'm striking out here. Tried manual gain envelopes, side-chained the "purposely accentuating the negative" compression technique, and also tried stacking de-essers and eqs. 
     
    Just before I call it quits and re-track the vocal I figured I'd toss this out to my nearest and dearest (I'm batting my eyelashes here). A sample of the vocal is here:
    https://soundcloud.com/fogpeople/vox-sample
     
    If anyone wants to weigh in on whether it's savable or not I'd appreciate it. Maybe a free copy of the whole record when it's done? :-) Especially if you share the secret sauce that fixes it!
     
    post edited by ...wicked - 2014/09/23 15:38:06

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    WallyG
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 21:23:47 (permalink)
    ...wicked
    ...A sample of the vocal is here:
    https://soundcloud.com/fogpeople/vox-sample
     
    If anyone wants to weigh in on whether it's savable or not I'd appreciate it. Maybe a free copy of the whole record when it's done? :-) Especially if you share the secret sauce that fixes it!
     


    I tried your link and got the message;
     
    "Sorry, something went wrong.
    Retry"

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 21:42:28 (permalink)
    If we lived close, I'd offer to loan you a nice mic and pre...


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    sock monkey
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/22 23:21:36 (permalink)
    What I'm hearing is almost a tight room sound,, like the voice was recorded in a tile box. This is what's going wrong. The sibilance almost sounds like it's a reflection off a hard surface. 
     
    I don't know how that was recorded but it's way off as far as warmth and tone go. 
    I would re do it and use a different space , mike, pre amp. 

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    ...wicked
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/23 02:12:33 (permalink)
    Hrm, not hard surfaces, actually custom made baffles around the vox area. Did the whole record like that and I'm four tracks in and vox sound great on everything else. It was a loud track though, so I think we were too close and too hot. 

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    sock monkey
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/23 09:05:20 (permalink)
     If I didn't no better I would say you have put effects on the voice. Like I say it sounds like a tile chamber to me. The sibilance almost sounds like it is triggered by a reflected sound. Like the room had a frequency spike. 
    Was there a music stand? A snare drum? 
     
    It got me thinking it could be caused by headphone leakage. Or some sort of feedback loop in your monitoring. But there's defiantly a 8-15 ms delay in there. 
    Either that or the MP3 encoding is weird. 
     
    Other possible causes could be overdriving your A/D as that sound is not what I call a normal sibilance artifact. It's acoustically or electronically induced. 

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    ...wicked
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/23 11:34:17 (permalink)
    If it were headphone leakage we'd hear the music in the track, no? 
     
    There was a music stand involved, no drums though. I'll double check my export and make sure it was fully dry.
     

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    ...wicked
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/23 15:46:42 (permalink)
    Whoops, yeah you were right, left the doubler on (how embarassing)
     
    Original link updated, but it's repeated here:
    https://soundcloud.com/fogpeople/vox-sample
     

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    paulo
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/23 17:09:58 (permalink)
    I take it melodyne didn't work then ?
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    ...wicked
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/23 18:12:52 (permalink)
    Nope. At least not to my own skill level at it. I just tried doing amplitude changes...is there a special spectrum tool I'm unaware of?
     

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    sock monkey
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/23 19:25:09 (permalink)
    Well that's much better, I knew there was something more than what you were describing. 
    But first observation, I certainly have trouble hearing what I'd call sibilance now. The doubling made it much worse so I would not add that effect at this point. 
    I see there is at least 3 places in the clip where "S" stands out but in a full mix I can't see this being noticed. I hope you not just going with soloing the vocal track and hoping it's perfect. I would go with a full mix first and see if others notice it. Your going to hear it now until you die!! :) 
     
    I opened it in Wave Lab and I applied a hi pass at 7,000 with a +7 bump at 1,200 which was to add what will be lost in volume. . I focused in on 
    "It's a sideways glance "   then    "it's never touched"   and just rendered those 2 places. 
    And it did improve the sibilance a bit. Probably enough to make the grade. Sorry I can't post a sample but just try it yourself. You just need to zoom way in and isolate the "C" or "S"
    EQ will certainly diminish the issue but in these cases an automated solution will probably do more damage than good. Manual editing a vocal track is my go to solution for these sort of issues. 
    While your in there you can fix all sorts of little things. I use narrow EQ filtering to get rid of sibilance and Plosives. You won't notice a filter on one little 1/2 second syllable like you will on the whole track. 
    It's also standard for me to look for quiet passages and use gain to level things out. Just a little here and there does it... you can't overdo these things. A gentle touch. 
    Another observation:  
    Her enunciation is sort of the problem like she was not exactly sure of the lyrics and is sort of slurring those parts. I found it real hard to understand what was being sung.. but that a good thing in rock and roll..  

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    ...wicked
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/23 21:00:19 (permalink)
    Wow, thanks! I'll dig in and try and recreate.
     
    Just for clarity, you say a hi-pass at 7K, did you mean a low-pass?
     

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    ...wicked
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    Re: De-essing? 2014/09/23 21:54:58 (permalink)
    Ah, no, I see now. Yes this works well! Okee, I think I'm back on the case here. Thanks so much!
     
    I'll chime back in when I finish with the vox and y'all can grade my work. :-)
     

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