Helpful ReplyStereo pan pots

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sharke
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2014/09/29 20:37:34 (permalink)
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Stereo pan pots

Pretty please?
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/10/01 13:50:02

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Splat
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/09/29 20:49:03 (permalink)
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Voted.

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Dave Modisette
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/09/30 19:53:56 (permalink)
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Yes. Very handy to have.
post edited by Mod Bod - 2014/09/30 20:01:28

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/01 10:01:19 (permalink)
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Don't we have that already?

Grem

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sharke
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/01 21:39:31 (permalink)
+2 (2)
Grem
Don't we have that already?




Nope. When you insert a stereo track, Sonar just gives you a single pan pot. All this does is control the balance between the left and right channels, i.e. the relative volume of each. So if you turn it left, you're not panning the whole stereo image left, you're just attenuating the right channel (and removing it entirely if the pot is turned all the way left) - and vice versa. By stereo pan pots, I mean a separate pan pot for the left and right channels. Pro Tools has this:
 

 
With stereo pots like this, you can pan the left and right channel individually. And thus you can not only pan the stereo image properly, but you can also control its width and even reverse the image if you like. Of course you can do this with Channel Tools, but we shouldn't have to load a plugin for something so basic - and personally, I've suffered from stability issues with Channel Tools at times (it's still 32-bit). 

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/01 21:44:17 (permalink)
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I would quite like the way NI massive does it. It would only require one pot that way (more room) cheers.

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/01 21:44:51 (permalink)
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sharke
I've suffered from stability issues with Channel Tools at times (it's still 32-bit). 


There is no reason to use the 32bit version of Channel Tools in 64bit SONAR. A 64bit VST version of Channel Tools is bundled with SONAR.
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Grem
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/01 23:55:57 (permalink)
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Sharke IIRC there was a lot of talk/debate back in the day (all the way to PA9) about this very subject for the reasons you just stated. For some reason, it was never put in to any version of Sonar that I know of. And along came Channel tools.

I use CT on almost all channels when mixing. It is not a bad tool at all.

I know this should be included. It seems so simple to us. But for some reason CW has never done it.

Grem

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/02 09:21:18 (permalink)
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I've be good with changing the Left/Right faders from Channel Tools into knobs and incorporating that into the track/console strip...   Maybe with the option of displaying that or the traditional single Pan knob.

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/02 09:37:19 (permalink)
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What do you mean Steve? Did you get the knobs from.CT on the Console stip?

Grem

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/02 19:58:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RSMCGUITAR 2015/05/13 02:12:19
+17 (17)
You don't want the Pro Tools way; it's not really stereo. It just considers stereo as two mono signals, which is baked deep into the PT code so I don't see that changing any time soon. While it's fine for set-and-forget applications, if you make changes to the panning, or consider a mix as a performance, it's a PITA to deal with two controls that do essentially the same thing to two mono signals.
 
The other consideration for a Sonar-specific implementation is what happens with Track View - two strips? Ugh.
 
What really needs to happen is applying two different parameters, width and position, to a single stereo signal. Consider the following.
 

 
The gray bar is the panpot range. The blue bar represents width, which you would slide within the panpot range. This concept would work for Console or Track view. The pan % would indicate the bar's center in the stereo field (I didn't take the time to change them, sorry).
 
The gestures could done a several different ways, but my preferred implementation would be click in the panpot and drag up/down to set width, then click and drag left/right to set position in the stereo field.
 
The downside is that if you wanted to automate width and not just pan, you'd need another automation parameter. But this opens up multiple creative possibilities.
 
If you didn't want to use a linear panpot but instead use a knob, then a "pie slice" representing width could be superimposed on the panpot knob, and you could move the "slice" left or right in the stereo field by moving the panpot.
 
This protocol has multiple advantages over the dual mono panpots:
 
1. Single control takes up less space.
2. Once you set the right width, you don't have to re-adjust it if you change the position.
3. You can "think" in stereo instead of dual mono.
4. More intuitive visual display. Very easy to visualize the position and width in the soundstage.
5. Much better than Pro Tools. 
 
 
 
 

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/02 20:14:46 (permalink)
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Perhaps a ProChannel module would be a better place for this feature, rather than adding more controls to the basic track strip. This would allow for larger size controls, which would be less fiddly to adjust.
 

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/02 20:46:59 (permalink)
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Kev999
Perhaps a ProChannel module would be a better place for this feature, rather than adding more controls to the basic track strip. This would allow for larger size controls, which would be less fiddly to adjust.



You can always put Channel Tools in the ProChannel and do what Pro Tools does. But I think we can do better. The pseudo-screen shot I did is more compact than the existing arrangement, and would translate to Track view as well.

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/02 21:48:05 (permalink)
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Anderton
Kev999
Perhaps a ProChannel module would be a better place for this feature, rather than adding more controls to the basic track strip. This would allow for larger size controls, which would be less fiddly to adjust.



You can always put Channel Tools in the ProChannel and do what Pro Tools does. But I think we can do better. The pseudo-screen shot I did is more compact than the existing arrangement, and would translate to Track view as well.



Your idea seems good. My comment wasn't a response to your post, which I didn't see it until after I posted.

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/02 21:50:20 (permalink)
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Grem
What do you mean Steve? Did you get the knobs from.CT on the Console stip?



Nah, I was just thinking it might be a nice idea to reuse what's already there.  But I think I like Craig's idea better for simplicity's sake - pan and width in a single widget, just a little thicker so it's easier to click on.  For more detailed control there's still Channel Tools. 
 

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/03 17:10:01 (permalink)
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Almost like what Craig is saying, however check out the Massive way (first 10 seconds)
http://youtu.be/6FgKeGUZKiE?t=4m59s
 
You could see how the visual representation of the stereo image could work and it's nice and compact. Combination of both ideas I suggest if possible.
 
Ta

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/03 19:03:51 (permalink)
+1 (1)
The Massive approach is basically the "pie slice" approach I mentioned if you wanted to use a knob. I chose a linear slider because it would work in track view; if it was adopted for console view, it would take up less space then a knob. 
 
For me, I think I would find it easier to parse the stereo position of multiple channels at a glance with the linear approach instead of the arc or pie slice. But wouldn't know for sure unless I could try the two different ways during an actual session.

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/03 19:11:07 (permalink)
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> it would take up less space then a knob. 
 
Yup I didn't see that, fair point....
 
Cheers...

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2014/10/03 19:18:50 (permalink)
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Anderton
You don't want the Pro Tools way; it's not really stereo. It just considers stereo as two mono signals, which is baked deep into the PT code so I don't see that changing any time soon. While it's fine for set-and-forget applications, if you make changes to the panning, or consider a mix as a performance, it's a PITA to deal with two controls that do essentially the same thing to two mono signals.
 
The other consideration for a Sonar-specific implementation is what happens with Track View - two strips? Ugh.
 
What really needs to happen is applying two different parameters, width and position, to a single stereo signal. Consider the following.
 

 
The gray bar is the panpot range. The blue bar represents width, which you would slide within the panpot range. This concept would work for Console or Track view. The pan % would indicate the bar's center in the stereo field (I didn't take the time to change them, sorry).
 
The gestures could done a several different ways, but my preferred implementation would be click in the panpot and drag up/down to set width, then click and drag left/right to set position in the stereo field.
 
The downside is that if you wanted to automate width and not just pan, you'd need another automation parameter. But this opens up multiple creative possibilities.
 
If you didn't want to use a linear panpot but instead use a knob, then a "pie slice" representing width could be superimposed on the panpot knob, and you could move the "slice" left or right in the stereo field by moving the panpot.
 
This protocol has multiple advantages over the dual mono panpots:
 
1. Single control takes up less space.
2. Once you set the right width, you don't have to re-adjust it if you change the position.
3. You can "think" in stereo instead of dual mono.
4. More intuitive visual display. Very easy to visualize the position and width in the soundstage.
5. Much better than Pro Tools. 
 
 
 
 




Oooohh! I like this!
 
Regards,
Dan
 

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#19
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2015/04/28 22:33:02 (permalink)
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I use channel tools for this feature as well. But recently I noticed that channel tools has very little headroom above 0db... IE it can distort.
 
In Sonar's 64-bit mix engine you really can't distort a channel... so I can push a plugin that has output transformer emulation to taste (like all the newer Universal Audio plugins) and then turn down the channel in Sonar. If I have the Channel tools as the last FX in the chain, then it could distort in that situation (and definitely has for me). If I have it earlier in the FX chain, then it changes the sound of any stereo dependent processors (like a compressor or reverb for example). I'm now using DMG's dualism in those instances as a temporary fix because it has way more headroom, but it seems like the things Channel tools can do should just be implemented into the Daw itself...
 
If the baker's won't allow different panning modes within Sonar, then at least update Channel tools to have more headroom, similar to the mix engine itself.
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2015/05/10 06:00:17 (permalink)
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Anderton
You don't want the Pro Tools way; it's not really stereo. It just considers stereo as two mono signals, which is baked deep into the PT code so I don't see that changing any time soon. While it's fine for set-and-forget applications, if you make changes to the panning, or consider a mix as a performance, it's a PITA to deal with two controls that do essentially the same thing to two mono signals.
 
The other consideration for a Sonar-specific implementation is what happens with Track View - two strips? Ugh.
 
What really needs to happen is applying two different parameters, width and position, to a single stereo signal. Consider the following.
 

 
The gray bar is the panpot range. The blue bar represents width, which you would slide within the panpot range. This concept would work for Console or Track view. The pan % would indicate the bar's center in the stereo field (I didn't take the time to change them, sorry).
 
The gestures could done a several different ways, but my preferred implementation would be click in the panpot and drag up/down to set width, then click and drag left/right to set position in the stereo field.
 
The downside is that if you wanted to automate width and not just pan, you'd need another automation parameter. But this opens up multiple creative possibilities.
 
If you didn't want to use a linear panpot but instead use a knob, then a "pie slice" representing width could be superimposed on the panpot knob, and you could move the "slice" left or right in the stereo field by moving the panpot.
 
This protocol has multiple advantages over the dual mono panpots:
 
1. Single control takes up less space.
2. Once you set the right width, you don't have to re-adjust it if you change the position.
3. You can "think" in stereo instead of dual mono.
4. More intuitive visual display. Very easy to visualize the position and width in the soundstage.
5. Much better than Pro Tools. 
 
 
 
 


Oh, this is nice And now we wait...

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#21
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2015/05/10 17:25:23 (permalink)
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Anderton
What really needs to happen is applying two different parameters, width and position, to a single stereo signal. Consider the following.
 

 
The gray bar is the panpot range. The blue bar represents width, which you would slide within the panpot range. This concept would work for Console or Track view. The pan % would indicate the bar's center in the stereo field (I didn't take the time to change them, sorry).
 



Oh, yes please. We just recently had a similar stereo pan pot feature request where I suggested to go for width and position instead ... wasn't aware this is so nicely thought through already.
 
I definitely vote for this as this would require WAVES S1 only for special cases but most stereo tracks I could simply tackle with this feature.

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Re: Stereo pan pots 2015/05/11 14:56:56 (permalink)
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nice idea
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2015/05/11 18:47:40 (permalink)
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Most definitely - position and width in one control.   C'mon, Craig, time to pull some of those magic strings...  you know we they you want it...   
 

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#24
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2015/05/12 13:01:11 (permalink)
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I just noticed my original post was edited by Alex. I wonder why? 

James
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#25
Beepster
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2015/05/12 13:32:52 (permalink)
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The stereo vs. mono and how it all affects things still confuses the frackballs out of me so yeah... I'm into this and I've kind of wondered why we needed something like Channel Tools to manipulate signals in this manner.
 
A left right blending type set up works much better in my primitive mind but I'd also like to keep the current option if it represents the true nature of traditional stereo pan (but based on this thread I'm not so sure it does... or perhaps it is a more intricate/philisophical debate that I am not aware of).
 
I'm kind of thinking that we should have options for each track that allow us the current approach, sharkes approach and other varitaions that I'm too dull to comprehend the implications of (yet) and that way the user can choose which works best for them and at which stage/times.
 
It could be an option to set across all tracks from the CV or Global menus and on a track by track basis by way of some dropdown/button/sub menu/etc. Since my understanding is limited I can say whether have mutliple options active at once would be worthwhile (I guess maybe it would be like having two instances of Channel Tools in the bin or fiddling with one instance of Channel Tools in conjunction with the standard track pan... IDK)... but I like options. Again I think CT was added as an option to cover limitations so removing those limitations outright would be preferable (but still have CT because it's cool and useful anyway).
 
The other thing that this makes me think of is it might be nice to be able to have input options for these left/right channels so we can take the signals being pumped into either side from anywhere we want. Like track, synth, effect, send, etc outputs. Or maybe send from a bus back into a track through these options (that could be pretty wacky).
 
I may be a little crazy today and rambling but, sharke... this was a good post and good suggestion with good followups. Sorry I am not smart enough to fully understand it but it has lit up my imagination and now I think I may even try doing some of this crap on my own with what I've already got. It would be a heck of a lot easier/more intuitive with a seriously expanded pan module on each track. Would probably kick the tar out of all the other DAWs if some development occured in this area as well and I doubt it would be that hard. Just simple routing really.
 
Cheers.
#26
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Stereo pan pots 2015/05/26 02:05:33 (permalink)
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bumped ... because this is probably more useful than requesting Channel Tools to be made into a ProChannel module

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#27
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