DrLumen
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[Resolved] Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
In previous versions of Cakewalk the console sliders would follow along with the track volume. I can't get Sonar X3 Studio to have the same function. Was that removed for some reason or have I missed an option setting?
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scook
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/08 12:28:30
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I don't use the console view often so I just tested by creating a new project, adding an audio track with a volume envelop. While playing the project, as long as "Read automation" was enabled in the track, the fader in the console moved with the volume envelop. I do not have Studio to test with so I can only confirm the action in Producer. It would not be the first time something worked in one version and failed in another but this is a pretty basic function. Hopefully someone with Studio will come along and provide feedback.
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KPerry
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/08 12:30:32
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Are you in Offset mode (O)?
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scook
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/08 12:37:25
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Yeah, offset mode makes sense. Use that less than the console view. Offset mode will have "+" signs to the right of the Pan and Volume numeric readouts on the console track strips. The keyboard shortcut for Offset mode is the letter "O".
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joeb1cannoli
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/08 12:42:43
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I believe that the faders follow track automation but not clip automation.
Did you automate the track or the clip?
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RobertB
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/08 13:46:19
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Scook, yes, the faders and other controls are properly linked in Studio.
Offset mode seems most likely. That one gets a lot of people.
Also, volume is a track parameter. Clip gain can be automated, but this has no bearing on the volume slider.
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scook
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/08 13:59:51
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DrLumen
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/09 14:28:58
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I checked the Offset mode (that may come in handy sometime) and that the Read Automation was checked but still no joy.
I normally don't use the console much either but I was importing an old project to remix and convert to soft synths, etc. It had a lot of dynamic changes and it appears these are now causing problems in X3. I can hear it is not right but the automated sliders would give a better idea of exactly what is going on and where the problems may lie. I have already ran into some instrument mapping issues/bugs so there may be more there that I haven't squashed.
Thanks for the suggestions! I'll keep plugging along...
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RobertB
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/10 00:02:51
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DrLumen
It had a lot of dynamic changes and it appears these are now causing problems in X3. I can hear it is not right but the automated sliders would give a better idea of exactly what is going on and where the problems may lie.
This statement has me wondering if we are all on the same page here. Are you expecting the sliders to respond to levels in the audio? In other words, when the peak levels increase, the sliders move up? If so, that's not how it works. The sliders move only if they have a volume envelope to follow. Most often, you would create this in the track view. If there is no envelope, the sliders remain stationary. They are linked to the volume level you have set in the track view. The sliders(and volume envelope) do give you a way to control overly active audio tracks. If I am reading you right, a Spectrum analyzer, such as Voxengo SPAN, might be the tool you are looking for. In X3 Studio, we don't have the cool analyzer built into the Producer ProChannel flyout. Maybe we'll get it in X4(one can hope). One thing to bear in mind, especially in the context you have given of the project, is that many softsynths tend to run a bit hot. Sometimes, simply turning down the synth output level helps a lot. If you turn on the Waveform Preview in the synth audio track, it will pinpoint any clipping from the synth output. You can also adjust the velocity of the MIDI feeding the synth, but this may or may not be ideal, because it can affect the tone/timbre of the notes produced by the synth. Which synth(s) are you using? More specific information may be helpful.
post edited by RobertB - 2014/10/10 00:22:39
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johnnyV
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/10 00:24:22
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I will also confirm that automation most certainly moves the faders in Studio. Studio is exactly the same as producer minus a few included plug ins and VST's. I think pro channel has more options in Pro too. But features, layout and all the buttons are still the same.
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DrLumen
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/10 16:40:05
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RobertB
DrLumen
It had a lot of dynamic changes and it appears these are now causing problems in X3. I can hear it is not right but the automated sliders would give a better idea of exactly what is going on and where the problems may lie.
This statement has me wondering if we are all on the same page here.
Are you expecting the sliders to respond to levels in the audio? In other words, when the peak levels increase, the sliders move up?
If so, that's not how it works.
The sliders move only if they have a volume envelope to follow. Most often, you would create this in the track view. If there is no envelope, the sliders remain stationary. They are linked to the volume level you have set in the track view.
The sliders(and volume envelope) do give you a way to control overly active audio tracks.
If I am reading you right, a Spectrum analyzer, such as Voxengo SPAN, might be the tool you are looking for. In X3 Studio, we don't have the cool analyzer built into the Producer ProChannel flyout. Maybe we'll get it in X4(one can hope).
One thing to bear in mind, especially in the context you have given of the project, is that many softsynths tend to run a bit hot. Sometimes, simply turning down the synth output level helps a lot. If you turn on the Waveform Preview in the synth audio track, it will pinpoint any clipping from the synth output.
You can also adjust the velocity of the MIDI feeding the synth, but this may or may not be ideal, because it can affect the tone/timbre of the notes produced by the synth.
Which synth(s) are you using? More specific information may be helpful.
Robert, the initial file used external midi synth modules so there were no soft synths used. The volume changes were not in envelopes per se. Some volume control changes were captured from write automation and some were drawn within the piano roll control section of Cakewalk 5. (yes really old files) I don't think Cakewalk5 had envelopes. When I bring the file in to Sonar the file plays but some volume changes and expression changes one 1 track affect other tracks. Part of the issue is that I have found that the midi mapping order changed some going from one version to the next and think I have resolved all of those issues. However, unlike Cakewalk 5, the console volume sliders no longer follow the volume changes. I'm hoping the sliders for the primary control channel will change while pointing to me the source of the problem. This may be a pipe dream as all the sliders may just follow 1 channel as well. (sigh) I expect there to be a lot of remixing to be done once I get some parts converted to using soft synths because, as you say, some are recorded hot. However, at this point I'm just trying to get it working and playing like in C5.
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RobertB
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/11 00:35:27
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Very useful information there, DrLumen. Thanks for that. It clarifies the disconnect between your expectations, and what we(including you) are seeing. Among other things, when the rest of saw "previous versions", I don't think we were thinking quite that previous  . I started with Sonar4, and the sliders then operated essentially as they do now. They are strictly audio controls. However, the old Cakewalk line was mostly MIDI-centric, as I understand it. I have no direct experience with those products, and can only make my best guess based on what little I have seen mentioned of them. Hopefully, some of the old guard will step in. I suspect that the C5 sliders were reflecting MIDI CC or velocity data. It's possible they were audio levels, but the format in which the file is saved cannot be read by current versions. Since envelopes and their relation with the volume controls did not exist back then, it is most likely the necessary information is simply not there. At any rate, I am fairly certain the console sliders will not behave as you are hoping for. I think you may be in for a bit of an uphill run, but a change of tactics may be helpful. Open the controller pane in your PRV. This will show velocity and other CC data embedded in the MIDI track(s). The PRV is a fairly powerful tool Also, open the GUI's of the softsynths you are using. If they are responding to CC data, you will see the affected parameter knobs and dials move. You may want to create volume envelopes in the synth audio tracks. Do turn on the waveform preview in the synth audio tracks. It is very helpful for making adjustments in the volume envelopes. Don't use simple instrument tracks. Just don't. They have their place, but not for what you are trying to do. Another thought. Which softsynth(s)are you using? They all have various strengths and weaknesses You are crossing a huge software generation gap. It may not be easy, but keep pounding away at it. And don't be afraid to ask more questions. There are some pretty bright people here, willing to help. Good luck.
post edited by RobertB - 2014/10/11 01:24:36
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John
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/11 09:03:31
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Sonar has aways had the ability to have envelopes. Envelope is another term for automation. Even before Sonar in Pro Audio there were envelopes.
The faders will move as long as there is volume automation to guide the movement.
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johnnyV
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/11 18:10:58
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I was thinking an example is the Console view shows only the Soft synth's audio output automation, but if a sofyt synth has a mixer GUI, like the TTS-1 or Session drummer, that mixer GUI will follow MIDI volume, pan and effects changes visually.
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bvideo
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/12 09:48:40
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If still using MIDI, most likely with VSTis, are you using separate MIDI and synth (audio) tracks or the simple instrument tracks? In the separate case, the envelope and slider movement from your original project would show up on the MIDI track, not the synth track. In the simple instrument case, you might have to poke around in the prochannel panel of the track view to display the MIDI slider as opposed the the synth audio slider. (As johnnyV says, the console channel strip doesn't show the MIDI slider of a simple instrument track. Also, the manual shows only the audio slider.)
For MIDI there is also the option to convert MIDI events to envelopes, if that's what you prefer.
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DrLumen
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/13 03:05:21
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Yes, at this point they are all simple instrument tracks with no soft synths or audio waves involved.
I've looked through the event listings for the tracks and can see the instructions there. The piano roll also shows the control changes. However, those really don't narrow down or give any indication as to why those would affect other channels/tracks.
I'll try to convert the midi volume events (CC7) to envelopes and see if that works out.
FWIW, as to the jump from CW5 to X3, I confess that I sinned and was using Acid for a while... For my sins, I kept getting burned. (sorry for the pun)
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/13 05:21:16
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DrLumen
Yes, at this point they are all simple instrument tracks with no soft synths or audio waves involved.
That's confusing. A Simple Instrument Track always includes a soft synth as far as I know. That is to tell it from an "ordinary" soft synth setting including separate MIDI-track feeding the soft synth with output to an audio output track.
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Karyn
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/13 06:39:01
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DrLumen
I'll try to convert the midi volume events (CC7) to envelopes and see if that works out.
CC7 is a direct control of the output volume control of the synth (either hardware or soft-synth) it is NOT the volume level of either an audio or midi track. It will not move the faders in console view.
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DrLumen
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/13 19:04:01
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Kalle Rantaaho
DrLumen
Yes, at this point they are all simple instrument tracks with no soft synths or audio waves involved.
That's confusing. A Simple Instrument Track always includes a soft synth as far as I know.
That is to tell it from an "ordinary" soft synth setting including separate MIDI-track feeding the soft synth with output to an audio output track.
Ok, thanks for the clarification there. I wished it worked like CW5. (sigh)
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RobertB
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/13 21:42:45
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You'll get it. It just takes time, effort, and some studying.
If you haven't already, browse the help files. Often, you will find the answer to a question you didn't know how to ask.
At this point, it appears that the C5 project you have imported into X3 is entirely MIDI, correct?
You've mentioned a few times how other channels/tracks are being affected.
Exactly how are they being affected?
And which soft synth(s) are you using? This may be more important than it seems.
I'd ask for some screen shots, but you don't have quite enough posts yet.
We've strayed a bit from the original subject line,but I think we are getting closer to figuring this out.
Side note: Does anybody have access to screen shots of Cakewalk 5? I have been unsuccessful, and I would love to see what he started out with.
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johnnyV
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/13 23:40:23
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HA HA Bob.. computers probably could do a screen shot back then! They were Black and green!
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RobertB
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/14 01:52:40
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LOL. It's not that old, but I'm sure it relied heavily on DOS. If it ran on W95/W98, somebody might have a screen shot somewhere. If it still ran under XP, the odds are even better. On a side note, my first computer was a Tandy CoCoII. My second was a CoCoIII. It was built to the hilt. Dual double sided floppy drives, RAM upgraded to 512K(yes K). 1.7 Mhz, 8bit Motorola 6809B processor(early version of the 68020 that Apple took off with). And a code assembler. Back then, we had to write machine code to squeeze everything we could out of these things. So we did. That was the bronze age of home computers. Now, when I fire up my quad core 64bit machine, I am amazed at what it can do. and it's already bordering on obsolescence  . So yeah, I feel DrLumen's pain, and I really hope we can get him up to speed. Technologywise, we live in a wonderful time.
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Paul P
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/14 07:46:56
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Like this ?  
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RobertB
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/14 22:19:27
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Wow. Thanks Paul. That gives me a pretty good idea of what he was working with.
That's more basic than I expected, but I'm sure it was an awesome program in its day.
It really drives home just how good we have it now. Man, we've come a long way.
DrLumen, CW5 to X3 is apples and bicycles. Consider your old project as raw material(which, basically, it is). You say you want to use soft synths, but have indicated that there are actually no soft synths in your project. This suggests you may be using the MS Wavetable Synth. If so, that's probably why stuff is sounding wrong.
More details on just exactly what you are working with will really help us help you.
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DrLumen
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/15 14:11:52
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I was able to get everything resolved! After getting the mapping issues resolved, I converted the CC7 control messages to a Volume envelope and that got all the faders following along as well.
It's been a long time but IMS I'm pretty sure the CW5 I was using was for Windows (perhaps 3.0 or 3.1). Those screenshots don't look anywhere vaguely familiar.
Thanks all for the help! Now I can start converting to soft synths and remixing.
------
Edit
FWIW, I was using a windows version. I specifically remember the panic button (midi reset) was a face like the kid from Home Alone. Eyes wide and mouth open.
Anyway, thanks again!
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stevec
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/16 14:31:45
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More like this?  
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/16 15:06:58
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DrLumen
FWIW, I was using a windows version. I specifically remember the panic button (midi reset) was a face like the kid from Home Alone. Eyes wide and mouth open.
Anyway, thanks again!
It's from Edward Munchs painting "The Scream". I liked it, too. (120 million dollars the last time they auctioned it, AFAIK)
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DrLumen
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Re: Console Track Sliders Following Tracks
2014/10/16 18:21:10
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Yep, Steve, that's the one.
Kalle, I wouldn't go so far as to say I "liked" it. It was memorable and always kinda creeped me out. :)
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