SSD drive - Also edit -EVO 840 Bug

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johnnyV
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2014/10/19 21:12:00 (permalink)

SSD drive - Also edit -EVO 840 Bug

SSD Drive Questions

 EDIT: See post 20 and 21 for important info for all Samsung EVO 840 owners Bus fix required. 
 
 
 
 
I rebuilding my DAW and I have already bought the MOBO, Processor and RAM. 
 
I was going to labotimize my 2007 Silverstone case and put the parts in there. 
I was going to do this because I thought I had a week downtime. Now I have a client booked for Wednesday so will hold off. Then I was thinking for the money why not order a new Case and Power supply. Then I like to use a fresh hard drive and was going to order another $56 1 TB 7200 HD.
But maybe I should finally get into the what everyone else here seems to have and that's a SSD drive. 
 
So I've picked a case and Power supply no problem but  looking at SSD drves I need some help. I see they are each different and the prices go from $130 to $ 200 for a 240 GB drive. 
 
So what is the difference in the 2 models posted above? Is there a speed / access difference? As this will be my C drive and my working Audio / Project drive * I am willing to pay for better performance. But just paying $90 more thinking it's "got to be better" would be dumb on my behalf. Thanks for any input. 
 
* I keep working projects on C drive, They are backed up in at least 3 more dive locations and when finished they are removed from C. My total Calkwalk Project folder with 3 albums going is only 34 Gigs. Down the road I guess I would add a second SSD for DATA. 
 
 YI MOBO is a 
 
http://www.ncix.com/detail/gigabyte-z97x-soc-atx-lga1150-z97-da-96893-1382.htm
 
 

 
 
 
 
post edited by johnnyV - 2014/11/06 12:16:21

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#1

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    melmyers
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/20 01:12:13 (permalink)
    A year-and-a-half ago, my computer expert suggested I go with a Crucial SSD, saying that he and his customers had good experiences with the brand. (He was not selling SSD's, so he had no vested interest.) I took his advice, ordered a Crucial 512 GB unit (from a seller on eBay), and it has worked perfectly. 

    Mel Myers
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    #2
    lawajava
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/20 02:35:09 (permalink)
    I would suggest just looking up SSD on Amazon. The prices and units you have links to above seemed overpriced for the value.

    That said, SSDs are the way to go. You'll be glad you get an SSD.

    Two internal 2TB SSDs laptop stuffed with Larry's deals and awesome tools. Studio One is the cat's meow as a DAW now that I've migrated off of Sonar. Using BandLab Cakewalk just to grab old files when migrating songs.
    #3
    bitflipper
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/20 10:35:53 (permalink)
    You might also want to look at PCIe SSDs, which achieve even faster performance (3x faster) by bypassing the SATA interface. You'll pay twice as much for them, though. 
     
    It'll be a while before any SSD finds its way into my DAW. Not until they're under a hundred bucks for a terabyte, which will definitely happen eventually. Until then, my conventional drives are fast enough for even large projects, and as long as they can keep up the only real benefit of an SSD would be faster load times. I doubt that loading a sample library in 2 seconds is going to boost my creativity.
     
     


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #4
    MondoArt
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/20 10:50:19 (permalink)
    I'm using the ADATA SX900, exactly the one you posted, for over a year now.
     
    What bitfillper said is right, it doesn't make much of a difference for actually working, but how fast Windows starts up and programs start is a lot faster.  I keep all samples (i.e. Komplete 8) on my 3TB drive, along with documents and project files.  The SSD is used only for Windows and programs.
     
    I haven't any issue with the ADATA.  Can't speak for the others, but at the time, the ADATA seemed to me the best bang for the buck.
     
    I'm running it on an ASUS P8Z68-M Pro board with Intel i5 processor.

    Neel
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    #5
    johnnyV
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/20 11:28:03 (permalink)
    Thanks for the replies. Well a faster boot up and Software loads would be nice. Right now it's probably an entire minute or so which I spend turning other stuff on and looking for my guitar picks etc.. Sonar loads within 10 seconds, Wave lab about 20. So in 2 minutes I'm working. And that's my old computer. I'm expecting this new system to be a bit faster. 
     
    I don't use sample libraries because I'm mostly audio. Drums are for the most part midi and I might add piano and organ. So what I'm after is more for the OS and software stability and bullet proof endurance.
    I was under the impression that SSD drives should not fail in the way a standard HD will because there are no moving parts. Is this true? Who out there has the oldest SSD drive? 
     
    I think I'll order this one recommended by a tech friend of mine. What my question was is there anything "better" with certain specs? Seems there is not at this point other then the read write spec which seems about the same at this price point. 
     
    http://www.ncix.com/detail/samsung-840-evo-series-mz-7te120bw-55-87760-1246.htm
     
    Hey Lawajava , thanks for the price tip, But NCIX will price match on check out. Plus for me it's a Canadian supplier and no shipping hassles. Plus they are solid on returns. Been buying from them for 15 years. 

    Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional
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    #6
    hockeyjx
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/20 11:40:05 (permalink)
    Crucial M500s are solid from my experience. I've bought about 50 in the last year, and haven't one problem from a customer. I'd stick with that or Intel ...as I've heard nothing good personally about Adata (again, only what I have heard).
     
    Those PCIe drives are for the rich and famous! This: http://www.amazon.com/Intel-P3600-800Gb-Height-Single/dp/B00L0LFKQW/ref=sr_1_8?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1413819313&sr=1-8&keywords=ssd+hard+drive Costs a few hundred more than my machine did! 

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    #7
    ronald.57
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 00:49:41 (permalink)
    Recently I bought a PNY 120GB SSD for € 60,= (which is $70,=). I installed Sonar X1, X2 and X3 producer completely, plus full versions of Guitar Rig 4 and 5, Addictive Drums 1 and 2, Melodyne editor, + some more small add ons.
    Alltogether, including windows 8.1.1 pro, it takes about 75 GB of space, so there is more then 40GB disk space available. At this moment I keep all my projects on an external SATA drive.
     
    Windows starts real fast (10 secs, including Smart Eset virus protection), X3 starts (including scanning of VST's) in 10-15 secs, which is much faster then it used to take. So I'm quite happy with this small investment.   
    #8
    johnkeel
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 05:28:02 (permalink)
    Working for a laptop brand for years i can give you some input on this.
    EVERY brand we sold, NONE ever compared to the low RMA of the SAMSUNG SSDs, its crazy actually, we sell millions of those in last 4 years, only got like 2 to 3 RMAS. It's just stupid and insane, nothing else can compare, we tried intel, ocz, toshiba, plextor, crucial, corsair, kingston, and usually it only takes a week or two to notice the difference in reliability.
    My advice is Samsung 840 Pro or the new 850 PRO, but i cant vouch with real RMA data on the last one, but according to Samsung they are even more reliable... even the warranty is longer.
    #9
    jeffb63
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 06:07:32 (permalink)
    I've got a Samsung 840 Evo as the system drive in my studio DAW and an 840 Evo as the system drive in my stage laptop with an 840 Pro as the sample storage drive in the laptop.
     
    All nice and speedy and noproblems so far.

    Studio:
    X3 Producer on i7 4770K Asus Z87-K 32Gb G-Skill Trident X. W8.1 x64. 2408 Mk3, ADI8-DD. BCF2000. 
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    Cantabile Performer 2 on Lenovo W530 i7 3720QM 16Gb DDR3. Samsung 840 Evo, Samsung 840 Pro. W7 x64.
    #10
    Karyn
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 07:19:52 (permalink)
    Another vote for Samsung here...
     
     
     
     
     
     
    ...just before I relocate the thread to computers...
     
     
     
     
    ... if you follow the thread there and keep posting there'll be more traffic in the Computer Corner...
     
     
    I'll give it an hour.

    Mekashi Futo
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    #11
    Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 08:56:54 (permalink)
    Something to be aware of.  I heard this from Steve Gibson.  
    Higher density SSDs use what's known as multi level cells.  Since they're basically capacitors, over time they can lose the ability to distinguish between different values.
     
    Look for "And so the problem with multilevel cells as opposed to single-level cells" 
    https://www.grc.com/sn/sn-406.htm
    as this is a transcript of the entire show, 
     
    The tech continues to improve as far as long term reliability.  Knowing how many levels are being represented in cells can give a basis for comparison.  Probably don't want to be on the highest density if you want long-term usage. 
     
    Regardless, still have to continue to deal with backups.  But not having a spinning platter does have advantages.  
     
     

    Keith
    #12
    Karyn
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 09:30:11 (permalink)
    It's not so much the density of the SSD that's the issue, but specifically the Flash type used to get the density.  MLC is cheap, but SLC is faster and lasts 10x as long.
     
    Random quote from the internets that explains MLC and SLC.
     
    MLC vs SLC head to head
    Vendors may prefer not to discuss the differences between the technologies, but understanding the underlying technology can influence deployment strategies. So, what are the key differences between MLC and SLC flash SSD?
    All flash memory suffers from wear, which occurs because erasing or programming a cell subjects it to wear due to the voltage applied. Each time this happens, a charge is trapped in the transistor's gate dielectric and causes a permanent shift in the cell's characteristics, which, after a number of cycles, manifests as a failed cell.
    SLC uses a single cell to store one bit of data. MLC memory is more complex and can interpret four digital states from a signal stored in a single cell. This makes it denser for a given area and so cheaper to produce, but it wears out faster.
    So, an MLC cell is typically rated at 10,000 erase/write cycles, while an SLC cell might last 10 times that before failing. However, manufacturers of products consisting of MLC cells can and do have ameliorating technologies and techniques at their disposal.
    According to Andrew Buss, service director at analyst firm Freeform Dynamics, amelioration techniques used by most vendors include wear-levelling, which moves write cycles around the chip so that cells wear evenly; on-device deduplication, which reduces the volumes of data written and so lowers wear; redundancy, which reserves a portion of the device's capacity to replace cells as they fail; and write optimisation, which stores data writes so they can be made in large chunks to reduce the number of write operations. The emerging term for MLC products that incorporate such techniques is enterprise MLC, or eMLC.
    Most such techniques are implemented in the device controller -- the interface between device and computer -- with companies such as SandForce and Intel among the most advanced in implementing such techniques, according to Buss. *And despite the endurance issues related to SSDs, they remain, say vendors, more reliable than spinning media.
     
    *Emphasis added by me.
     
    Something not mentioned above, but hinted at if you read the amelioration techniques, is that you should NOT defrag an SSD. 1) You gain nothing in RW speed by defragging an SSD, it's running at the speed of flash RAM regardless. 2) You're reducing the life of the cells by needlessly moving files around.  3)  Wear levelling (always writing to fresh areas rather than over-writing original data) means that fragmentation will occur very quickly on regularly changing files, but it doesn't matter as random access speed of flash RAM is effectively the same as serial access speed.  Unlike with a spinning disk.

    Mekashi Futo
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    #13
    johnnyV
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 10:01:24 (permalink)
    Excellent stuff.
    And Thanks for leaving this for the day, The thread I started here never got one reply ;(    
    ( you can delete it)    but I got some good answers upstairs. Very few regular users visit  the sub forms so your not tapping in to our nice wide spectrum of users when you post anywhere other than the main forum. I'm so happy the old Sonar and Sub forms are all one now.  I don't need to open as many sub forms anymore. So there is a great benefit for just keeping most topics in the main forum. I agree that building a computer belongs here, but in away this topic is important to all users of DAW's.
    Anyways all is good and I'm just waiting for my new case and power supply allong with the Samsung SSD to arrive.  

    Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional
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    #14
    fireberd
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 10:09:45 (permalink)
    One of the DAW builders, that posts here, (I forget which one) recommended Intel SSD drives.  I have one on my Win 7 install and have Sonar and plug-ins installed on the SSD, but I have my projects on a conventional hard drive. 
     
    I also have an OCZ Vertex 4 on my Win 8.1 install (same PC as the Win 7 - dual boot) and the OCZ Vertex 4 has better benchmark scores.  OCZ was recently acquired by (I Think) Panasonic, but I don't know if they have rebranded the OCZ's yet or going to leave them branded as OCZ.
     
    Of the two, if were to buy another it would be an OCZ, based on my experience over the last 2 plus years that its been installed (when I built the PC).

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    #15
    lawajava
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 11:10:34 (permalink)
    JohnnyV - you've made a good choice. I have two internal Samsung 1TB Evo SSDs in my laptop.

    Couldn't be happier. I would never go back to platter drives.

    Two internal 2TB SSDs laptop stuffed with Larry's deals and awesome tools. Studio One is the cat's meow as a DAW now that I've migrated off of Sonar. Using BandLab Cakewalk just to grab old files when migrating songs.
    #16
    johnnyV
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 11:52:48 (permalink)
    Well a few minutes browsing manufactures web sites and you'll not find any references to the 
    MLC and SLC specs. I would assume top brands are not using MLC. 
     
    I know you can pick up a 32 Gig USB flash drive and the $10 ones are slow transfer and the $35 ones are faster.  But I guess the cheap ones are MLC. Or is a flash drive a different animal all together than a SSD? 

    Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional
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    #17
    BenMMusTech
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 15:59:30 (permalink)
    I'm going to get a small (128) SSD and place it into a USB 3 dock, this will be my working drive.  I will then use cheaper spindle drives for archiving.  The smaller drive will force me to back up regularly.  I really need a SSD because I do some video work and I'm afraid of breaking a spindle drive, I must admit.  I was doing a small 6 minute video project yesterday and I was taxing the hard drive eco system.
     
    Ben 

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    #18
    tlw
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/21 21:22:03 (permalink)
    My two Intel SSDs are working fine after two years. Though if I were rebuilding from scratch I'd be inclined to consider 500Gb Samsungs for the audio drive. SSD byte-per-buck ratio is much better than a couple of years ago.

    As for SSD over USB3, not sure I'd go that way. You should get some speed boost over a 7200 3.5" HDD but nothing like as much as connecting an SSD to the SATA bus. The bigger problem is that to work well and maintain their speed it is necessary for SSDs to be sent the TRIM command by the operating system. I've been researching external fast storage and as far as I can see USB does not support TRIM.

    Which means that once the SSD gets to be around 1/2 full (or maybe less) it will suffer a huge drop in speed, especially for writes.

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    #19
    johnkeel
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/10/22 05:15:33 (permalink)
    BenMMusTech
    I'm going to get a small (128) SSD and place it into a USB 3 dock, this will be my working drive.  I will then use cheaper spindle drives for archiving.  The smaller drive will force me to back up regularly.  I really need a SSD because I do some video work and I'm afraid of breaking a spindle drive, I must admit.  I was doing a small 6 minute video project yesterday and I was taxing the hard drive eco system.
     
    Ben 




    It's a waste of SSD, i would only consider having a external one if it was E-SATA. 50% of USB3 docks are garbage, 20% of USB ports in PCs are garbage, the sequential speed doing that is not bad but the access time is really bad. I really hate external storage by USB.

    My Personal WebsiteMy Band - SULLEN

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    #20
    johnnyV
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/11/05 21:33:54 (permalink)
    Just an update on this. 
    I bought the 840 EVO SSD, be warned there seems to be a bug that needs to be fixed, The drive slows down over time so you won't notice an issue until later on down the road. 
    This is what I just put together. 
     
     
    Samsung 840 EVO Series MZ-7TE120BW 120GB 2.5in SATA III Internal SSD Single Unit Version
     
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    Intel Core i5 I5-4460 Haswell 3.2GHZ Processor LGA1150 6MB Cache 
     
    I was originally just going to re build my original DAW using the Silverstone case and power supply. 
    But I figured it's still working fine so leave it as a back up and ordered the case and PS. It was hard to find a case that had all my requirments and had to wait a wekk for it to come from back east...it's huge!! I never looked at the size specs in my quest for drive bays, quiet fans and front panel USB 3 etc. 
    It's working perfectly after I hobbled all that stuff together, just doing the Updates. 
    I ended up using my Windows 8.1 OS. Was simple to install from my DVD copy and click a link that stole $110 for a new licence. Scary how easy that was. All automatic, less than 2 minutes. Funny the DVD cost only $86 on sale and a download activation cost me $24 more. 
     
     
    post edited by johnnyV - 2014/11/05 22:03:26

    Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional
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    #21
    johnnyV
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/11/05 22:02:22 (permalink)
     Here's the link to the EVO fix, First is the explanation the second link is about the fix and if you scroll to the bottom there are links to the download. 
     
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/8550/samsung-acknowledges-the-ssd-840-evo-read-performance-bug-fix-is-on-the-way
     
    http://techreport.com/review/27212/samsung-840-evo-update-fixes-slow-reads-with-old-data
     
     
     

    Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional
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    #22
    Grem
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/11/05 22:22:50 (permalink)
    Thanks for the info Johnny. I have the exact same SSD in my all purpose PC. And had a lot of work to get it going. So I was reluctant to out it in my music PC. It's still sitting up there on the desk waiting for me to put it in. Not sure if I will. I just didn't see a significant difference in my all purpose to justify putting it in my music PC.

    Grem

    Michael
     
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    #23
    johnkeel
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/11/06 05:27:36 (permalink)
    I doubt you can buy a Samsung EVO which doesnt already ship with a fixed firmware.
    And then there's Samsung Magician software, you get all updates with a single click, plus OS optimization, Drive Optimization and Benchmark, and other cool stuff! Its a must!

    My Personal WebsiteMy Band - SULLEN

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    #24
    johnnyV
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/11/06 12:21:43 (permalink)
    No this fix just came out October 14th. So I doubt any currant stock was "fixed" already. Mine wasn't. The firmware update ran just fine and then it runs a utility after re boot that takes up to an hour to  "fix" your data. Mine only took 10 minutes as I'm only at the OS level at this point. I'm waiting for all updates to run before moving to the software install phase. 
    I'll say one thing, this is all working FAST! USB 3 loading from my external drive, and even the internet is super fast. Window 8 loads in 5-10 seconds to password screen. 
     
    Anyhow the issue was one of slow access of OLD data. New data was not effected. So It might take a year before you would notice something wrong. I'll give Samsung credit for resolving the issue very quickly. Problem is, the fix is sort of hidden away and I would think unless you belong to a forum you won't know about the bug. And don't thank me Thank Rsinger for the post in the Sonar forum.  
    I just changed this thread title so more people will get the message.  

    Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional
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    #25
    johnkeel
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/11/06 14:08:16 (permalink)
    johnnyV
    No this fix just came out October 14th. So I doubt any currant stock was "fixed" already. Mine wasn't. The firmware update ran just fine and then it runs a utility after re boot that takes up to an hour to  "fix" your data. Mine only took 10 minutes as I'm only at the OS level at this point. I'm waiting for all updates to run before moving to the software install phase. 
    I'll say one thing, this is all working FAST! USB 3 loading from my external drive, and even the internet is super fast. Window 8 loads in 5-10 seconds to password screen. 
     
    Anyhow the issue was one of slow access of OLD data. New data was not effected. So It might take a year before you would notice something wrong. I'll give Samsung credit for resolving the issue very quickly. Problem is, the fix is sort of hidden away and I would think unless you belong to a forum you won't know about the bug. And don't thank me Thank Rsinger for the post in the Sonar forum.  
    I just changed this thread title so more people will get the message.  




    Oh so it's another thing. I thought i saw the exact same problem way back, maybe in another series.

    My Personal WebsiteMy Band - SULLEN

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    #26
    DeeringAmps
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/11/06 20:51:56 (permalink)
    My EVO is my sample drive.
    Where do I run the exe file from?
    Do I put on any drive? the C drive? Or must it run from the EVO itself?
    TIA,
    Tom

    Tom Deering
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    #27
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/11/07 10:45:35 (permalink)
    tlw
    My two Intel SSDs are working fine after two years. Though if I were rebuilding from scratch I'd be inclined to consider 500Gb Samsungs for the audio drive. SSD byte-per-buck ratio is much better than a couple of years ago.

    As for SSD over USB3, not sure I'd go that way. You should get some speed boost over a 7200 3.5" HDD but nothing like as much as connecting an SSD to the SATA bus. The bigger problem is that to work well and maintain their speed it is necessary for SSDs to be sent the TRIM command by the operating system. I've been researching external fast storage and as far as I can see USB does not support TRIM.

    Which means that once the SSD gets to be around 1/2 full (or maybe less) it will suffer a huge drop in speed, especially for writes.



    FWIW,
     
    Connected to an Intel USB3 controller, you'd see all 520MB/Sec from a Samsung 840 EVO SSD.
    An Intel USB3 controller (integrated into Z series chipsets) tops out sustaining ~550MB/Sec.
     
    I've got a Samsung 840 EVO "Samples" drive that's over 90% full...
    Sustains 500+MB/Sec on reads.

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
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    #28
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/11/07 10:47:19 (permalink)
    DeeringAmps
    My EVO is my sample drive.
    Where do I run the exe file from?
    Do I put on any drive? the C drive? Or must it run from the EVO itself?
    TIA,
    Tom




    Hi Tom,
     
    You have to install the utility (on the boot drive)... and run the application once installed.
    Depending on what's on the SSD, it can take a few minutes (not instantaneous).

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #29
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: SSD drive question for Sonar DAWs 2014/11/07 10:54:47 (permalink)
    Grem
    Thanks for the info Johnny. I have the exact same SSD in my all purpose PC. And had a lot of work to get it going. So I was reluctant to out it in my music PC. It's still sitting up there on the desk waiting for me to put it in. Not sure if I will. I just didn't see a significant difference in my all purpose to justify putting it in my music PC.



    Using a SSD as boot drive:
    The machine would boot faster... applications open up a little faster... and Windows navigation is a tiny bit "snappier".
     
    Where SSD really shines is scenarios where you need large amounts of disk-streaming polyphony from advanced sample libraries.
    ie:  If you're composing for video games (no time/budget for a real symphony)... and you're using 1200 notes of disk-streaming polyphony from Hollywood Strings/etc, you're forced to use (multiple) SSD.
     
    A SSD is about 3 times the speed of a fast conventional HD.

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #30
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