[Answered] Question about bit depth...

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Sacalait
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2014/10/22 11:07:43 (permalink)

[Answered] Question about bit depth...

Here's a question for the computer guys in this forum.  I'm a producer/guitarist and not a computer guy.  I've been recording lately at 96/32 in Sonar.  My hardware doing the analog to digital conversion is either a Mytek 96 A/D, RME MultiFaceII, or Roland VS700.  All of these support 96/24.  I'm recording 32 bit in Sonar for the sake of not being concerned about transients peaking at 0.  Anyone see any issues with this?  It's sounding good but I just thought I'd ask.

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    gswitz
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 11:25:41 (permalink)
    24 bit is appropriate. 32 only on internal bounces.

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #2
    dantarbill
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 11:28:43 (permalink)
    Typically, all the better any converter can do is 24 bits...so you can't record at a resolution better than that.  Internally, SONAR will handle everything as 64 bit floating point (if you have "64-bit Double Precision Engine" enabled), so headroom isn't an issue.  So...saving individual tracks as 32 bit doesn't really buy you anything.  It just costs you disk space.

    Dan Tarbill
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    orangesporanges
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 11:32:49 (permalink)
    the only thing you may want to think about is not so much the bit depth, but the sample rate. the nomenclature works like this BTW: 24(bit)/ 96(khz). If your soundcard is only capable of doing 24 bit, that's all you are getting. 32 bit values beyond the 24 are not filled (or I think more accurately, filled with 0 values). Now, on to the real deal. If you plan on distributing your stuff (even just burning disks on your computer) you have to adhere to the format that you are using 24/96 is DVD, 16/44.1 is CD. (there are a couple of other configurations, but they are less common)
    The sampling rate , if not handled correctly (and I don't think Sonar is capable of converting it)
    will yield in errors if you try to burn a CD at 24/ 96khz. You can put 24/96khz on a DVD, but you'll have to listen to it on a DVD player.
    Now here's the kicker. You can record at any bit depth you want (24/32/16, whatever) and dither it to 16 bit for CD distribution. It's just the sampling rate that is the sticker here. I think you will find a lot, if not almost all folks around here use 24/44.1 just to avoid the sampling rate conversion.
    I know this is an oversimplistic view of how "it works" but I hope this gets you pointed in the right direction.

    Sonar Platinum, Windows 10 64bit, 3.4ghz i7CPU,  16gigs RAM, 1x 1TB SSD system drive 1 x 1TB HDD ( audio only)
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    Anderton
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 11:41:10 (permalink)
    Also remember that no 24-bit converter delivers a true 24 bits. Converter technology is just not that great.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    Sacalait
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 12:06:02 (permalink)
    so I gain nothing- really- by having Sonar set to 32 bit in the File Bit Depths preference?  Okay, but have I been LOSING anything, in anyone's opinion?  I just converted a song I'd recorded in Sonar at 32 bit to 24 and I may be imagining but it seems slightly better!  Am I tripping?  Ha!  I'm most appreciative of any responses!

    www.pershingwells.com www.facebook.com/pershingwells
    Sonar Platinum, PC- Intel i7-4770K w/16 Gig RAM Windows 8.1, Solid State Drive and eSATA drives, Mytek, RME UFX, RME Multiface II, Roland VS700,  A-Designs Pacifica, UA LA610, Presonus RC500. A-Designs Hammer EQ, DBX, AKG, Neumann, Roland, JBL, Fender, Gibson, G&L, Marshall, Korg, Martin, Shure, Electrovoice, Yamaha, Chameleon Labs comps.
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    stickman393
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 12:19:03 (permalink)
    You are losing disk space. You are also tripping.
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    Anderton
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 12:21:46 (permalink)
    What matters is the 64-bit audio engine for doing calculations. 32 bit file depth simply allows you to reproduce irrelevant data with more precision 

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
    #8
    Sacalait
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 12:42:00 (permalink)
    ...think you're right that I'm tripping...  ha!  I appreciate the insight from everyone!

    www.pershingwells.com www.facebook.com/pershingwells
    Sonar Platinum, PC- Intel i7-4770K w/16 Gig RAM Windows 8.1, Solid State Drive and eSATA drives, Mytek, RME UFX, RME Multiface II, Roland VS700,  A-Designs Pacifica, UA LA610, Presonus RC500. A-Designs Hammer EQ, DBX, AKG, Neumann, Roland, JBL, Fender, Gibson, G&L, Marshall, Korg, Martin, Shure, Electrovoice, Yamaha, Chameleon Labs comps.
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    John
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 15:26:06 (permalink)
    Anderton
    What matters is the 64-bit audio engine for doing calculations. 32 bit file depth simply allows you to reproduce irrelevant data with more precision 


    This is the very best way of putting it. I have to steal this when this subject comes up again.

    Best
    John
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    johnnyV
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 15:40:04 (permalink)
    oranges said: 
    "The sampling rate , if not handled correctly (and I don't think Sonar is capable of converting it)"
     
    I'm surprised no one commented on this. 
    I myself have used both 44.1 and 48. I am unaware that my 48 exports when set to export 44.1/16 bit were any different than my 44.1 exports ?? I didn't use 48 for very long as I saw no benefit for what I was doing. My 01V mixer is 44.1 so I'm stuck for now anyhow. 
     

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    #11
    dantarbill
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 15:59:29 (permalink)
    johnnyV
    oranges said: 
    "The sampling rate , if not handled correctly (and I don't think Sonar is capable of converting it)"
     
    I am unaware that my 48 exports when set to export 44.1/16 bit were any different than my 44.1 exports ??




    I know nothing about the accuracy of the SONAR sample rate conversions.  I have however, written sample rate conversion algorithms myself...and have inspected the results of some other commercial conversion products.
     
    Converting from 48 to 44.1 involves a lot of interpolation to do correctly.  (It's a pain in the...rear.)  One software vendor I checked did a very clean sounding conversion, but they also used a mathematical shortcut that caused the resulting pitches to be a few cents off.  While it's not distortion in the "my wave is clipped" sense...it's still distortion.
    Consequently, I don't trust tricky math.  If your target is CD (rather than video) I see no reason to tempt the math gods with a 48 to 44.1 conversion.  A better case can be made for 96 kHz, because you can push the brickwall filter farther up into the "now dogs can't hear it" range, which trumps my "tricky math" arguments.  This is also why I remain dumbfounded that 88.2 kHz recording (or 176.4 kHz if you must) isn't standard studio practice.  The conversion math is dirt simple.

    Dan Tarbill
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    Anderton
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 17:22:18 (permalink)
    orangesporanges
    The sampling rate, if not handled correctly (and I don't think Sonar is capable of converting it)

     
    If you want a real shock, go here where there's comparative, in-depth analysis spectra of various sample rate conversion programs and algorithms. Sonar has one of the very best - better than Pro Tools HD, Cubase, Reaper, FL Studio, Samplitude, Sequoia, Reason, even Wavelab and Sound Forge Pro. Sonar, Digital Performer, Ableton Live, and Audition all did really well. Most improved: Logic Pro X. Logic used to be horrible, now has one of the best.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    orangesporanges
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 19:48:29 (permalink)
    Good to know, Craig. I'm not 100% sure I knew what I was looking at, so I defer to you. My mistake in saying it can't convert it, I have been using 44.1 forever, so I have never had a need to convert it. I guess my impression was that it should be a multiple of what you expect to end up with, and 88.2 was tough on my old system. Maybe I should try higher sampling rates and see what happens.

    Sonar Platinum, Windows 10 64bit, 3.4ghz i7CPU,  16gigs RAM, 1x 1TB SSD system drive 1 x 1TB HDD ( audio only)
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    Anderton
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    Re: Question about bit depth... 2014/10/22 20:33:27 (permalink)
    orangesporanges
    Good to know, Craig. I'm not 100% sure I knew what I was looking at, so I defer to you.

     
    Basically anything other than a single, bright curved line is a problem. More other stuff = more problems.
     
    I have been using 44.1 forever, so I have never had a need to convert it. I guess my impression was that it should be a multiple of what you expect to end up with, and 88.2 was tough on my old system. Maybe I should try higher sampling rates and see what happens.



    The idea that you can't do decent sample rate conversion from, say, 96 to 44.1 was true at one point. However with 64-bit processing, there's plenty of math that can be applied to solving the problem. Any errors are so far to the right of the decimal point they might as well not exist at all.

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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