Click track

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dotonemanband
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2014/10/21 21:54:12 (permalink)

Click track

Very basic question. Just started a new project. Track one ... scratch guitar track (following click). Track two ... vocal. Vocal click track is out of sync with track one. How to correct?  
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    konradh
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/21 22:40:59 (permalink)
    Hey, there.  I am not clear.  You have a track with a click, a track with a guitar, and a track with a vocal?
    Or do you have separate click tracks for some reason?  Most people just use one click track for everybody, but maybe I just don't understand.  If you can explain, I will try to help.
     
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    #2
    YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/22 00:32:46 (permalink)
    Prolly a latency issue.
     
    I always review position of all clips. If automatic delay compensation has not done it duty, I just zoom in and move the track to what sounds correct.
     
    To move audio clips to the left it is often necessary to trim the beginning of the clips.
     
     
     
    #3
    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/22 06:58:59 (permalink)
    I'm at the beginning of a project - open Sonar - create new project. First thing is I insert an audio track and then record guitar following the click (meter) which I adjusted from 120 to 94 tempo. Next I insert the second track to add a vocal. Start the click to follow first track (guitar) and the click (meter) is now not lined up with the original first track. The click is the same meter but ahead of the first track by a small margin. I have not added any effects at this time. What is the solution to get the click on track two to be in sync with track one?
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    Kalle Rantaaho
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/22 07:54:01 (permalink)
    Just to be clear: By "click" you mean SONARs metronome, or something else? A click track and metronome are not the same thing. Or are you using some kind of a click VST?
    You say you "start the click" before recording the vocal track, and starting the metronome without actually starting playback or recording is something I thought can't be done. But I may be wrong, of course.
    As suggested above, it might be a latency issue. Maybe the original guitar track actually records off time compared to click due to latency, or the vocal. Check that the guitar tracks start position is spot on.
    Is this a new problem? Did you change any settings before it started?
     
    What is your interface and what driver are you using? Such problems are very typical to motherboard soundchips and MME drivers.

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    Karyn
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/22 08:45:03 (permalink)
    Another obvious question.  What version of Sonar is this?

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    robert_e_bone
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/22 09:46:03 (permalink)
    Are you monitoring directly, or through Sonar?
     
    Bob Bone
     

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    Bule1
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/22 12:41:27 (permalink)
    You may have the metronome following the nowtime ruler not realizing it's not aligned exactly at the start of the project. If the now time is set to 1.00 or whatever make sure that the guitar and vocal recordings are also at that same now time. I always click off 4  1/4 beats and start my recording on 2 so it gives me some time to get ready and it's always spot on no matter what the clock is. It could be latency but I haven't seen it yet in Sonar 3 using the internal metronome.
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    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/22 20:30:41 (permalink)
    Thanks to everyone helping out. I just recorded a couple measures following along with the metronome. As I play it back and listen along with the metronome, the part I just recorded is not in sync with the metronome. The recorded part is slightly behind the metronome when listening to playback. I've recorded before and this wasn't a problem. Just been absent for a bit, getting back into it and stumped here.
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    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/22 20:40:32 (permalink)
    Using Sonar X3 ...
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    Larry Jones
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/22 23:38:23 (permalink)
    When you say you've recorded before and this wasn't a problem, do you mean like, recently, using the same computer? Or three years ago, with a different setup? In other words, this same gear that you know for sure works is now causing an out-of-sync problem?

    It would be helpful to know what equipment you are using, especially the audio interface, as that is often where sync problems originate. Many users of this forum add that information to their signature, so everyone who is trying to help can see it.
     
    Also, have you recorded a track with a metronome on it, or are you using Sonar's built-in metronome, which does not record?

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    #11
    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/23 07:19:23 (permalink)
    Same computer, just not recorded in 3 months. Cakewalk UA-25 interface. Basically I just click record, hear the metronome, and record in time. When I play that back and listen with the metronome sounding the recorded part is now behind the click of the metronome. Up to date computer, Windows 8.1, 17, sonar xe producer. Just somehow something's different. I haven't used sonar since around June this year. Recently posted a problem with Midi + Audio in the forum and that problem was resolved. Not sure if I've changed something since then to create this problem I have.
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    Beagle
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/23 11:03:47 (permalink)
    a lot of times when tracks are out of sync from each other it's due to one of 2 things.
     
    1) mismatch of sampling rate between audio card/interface and sonar.  if you have your audio card set to 44.1k for example (either in the audio card's software or on a switch on the audio card itself) and your project in sonar is set to 48k, then you will have sync problems.
     
    2) using 2 different soundcards for playback and recording.  check your settings to see if you have the playback and recording timing masters both set to the UA-25.  if you have one of them (playback for example) set to the onboard soundcard or some other "soundcard device" listed in sonar (and thus listed in windows) then you will have problems with sync because you are not using the same clock for both devices.
     

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    johnnyV
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/23 13:02:33 (permalink)
    Yes for sure check your Timing Master in the preferences Audio dialog and that Sonar is using the ASIO drivers for the UA -25 and not your on board sound card. 

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    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/23 16:54:36 (permalink)
    Stumped, thanks for any help. Checked most of what was suggested by everyone here. I'm using the metronome on Sonar that's not recorded on a track. (Asked by Larry J.) Checked the timing master in preferences audio. Even tried creating another new project from beginning to see if that might work. Still getting the same thing. I can record original first track with metronome, then when played back, the metronome is now slightly out of sync with that first track during playback. Any other suggestions out there? Don't mean to be a nuisance ... just can't figure whatsup. I've recorded songs before on same computer, can't think of any changes I've made.
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    Beagle
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/23 17:14:13 (permalink)
    you didn't mention checking if there were discrepancies between the project sampling rate and the soundcard's sampling rate.
     
    if you haven't done that, I suggest again that you do.  what is your projects' sampling rate?  on the back of the UA-25, there is a 3 position switch which can be set to 44.1, 48 or 96.  make sure that your sampling rate there is matching your project sampling rate.  I suspect it's set to 48 and your project is at 44.1 or the other way around.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/23 17:22:35 (permalink)
    Is your delayed audio 'out' by a fixed amount or does it get worse as the project plays?
     
    My thinking is, if it's out by a fixed amount, it's a latency problem, if it gets worse over time then it's a sync problem.

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    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/23 19:51:44 (permalink)
    Beagle, thanks for that suggestion. I did check the ua-25 and it's set at 44.1. In Sonar, the project shows (under the now time view), 44.1. So that's the same. I still feel it's a sync problem. Still working on it...thanks
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    Lynn
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/23 20:44:35 (permalink)
    Go into  views>tempo and check to see if your tempo map is at the same BPM.





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    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/23 21:56:21 (permalink)
    Lynn, Checked out your suggestion. views/tempo ... tempo map same BPM's. Problem still exists ... but thanks anyway ...
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    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/24 07:17:54 (permalink)
    I opened projects from a few months back. When I add an audio track on an older project and click record, the metronome is right on and no problem. Not the case with the latest project attempt. As explained earlier, I can record along with the metronome for the first take, then when playing it back the metronome is now slightly off. Still looking for a solution. Any other suggestions out there?   
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/24 09:59:09 (permalink)
    Still waiting for your reply to my answer above.

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    Lynn
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/24 11:15:26 (permalink)
    On that particular project it may be that you'll have to record a click track to work with.  I'd be curious to know if that stays on time throughout.

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    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/24 16:41:41 (permalink)
    Bristol, It seems like the audio out metronome gets worse as the project plays. Lynn, How to record a click track? Drum machine?
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    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/24 17:55:30 (permalink)
    Bob Bone asked if I was monitoring directly or thru sonar. I think through Sonar as I always have. So, I record along with metronome in time. When listening to play back (along with metronome) the recording is slightly behind the metronome. How to sync?
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    johnnyV
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/24 22:35:34 (permalink)
    This is almost sounding like Sonar is not calculating RTL and your playback offset is out. 
     
    I would try this test to see if this is the case.
     
    Use a audio track with real obvious transient spikes, you can make one by bouncing a midi kick or snare track to audio. Just make sure the source track was quantizied to the time grid. 
    Now send this to your main outs of your interface. 
    Now unplug your monitor from one output and using a short patch cord patch your output back to your input. This is called a loop back test. 
    Insert an audio track below the original track your using for the test. ,,DO NOT ENGAGE INPUT ECHO. set it's source to the inputs you plugged the output cable into. 
    Now record the transient track at a nice hot level. Careful with your gain stage here. 
     
    Now zoom way in and compare the transients of the 2 tracks, and also see if they start OK but drift over time. 
    This was the test I did years ago that showed me how bad my set up was with a Creative Audigy card. Every time gave me different results. What was weird is I hadn't always noticed it and blamed my slow old computer etc. But for me it was drivers. It's been rock solid right on since I started using ASIO interfaces. 
     
    There's also this little test that works with ASIO drivers. It uses loop back but sends a little beep. 
    http://www.oblique-audio.com/free/rtlutility
     
     
     

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    quantumeffect
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/24 23:23:38 (permalink)
    Maybe a latency issue.
     
    Here is how I monitor if I am recording a drum track to the metronome.
     
    Delta 1010 (outs) --> PreSonus Monitor Station (cue out) --> Samson Headphone Amp
     
    When I do this , I am not hearing my drums in the headphones only the click so I guess I am technically not monitoring but this really does away with latency issues and I don't need to hear the drums in the headphones.
     
    If I was recording something other than drums and needed it tight to the click and didn't want to deal with latency issues I would use the aux out on my mixing board and insert that into the head phone amp and then just balance the backing track or click that is coming from cue on the PreSonus with whatever is being played live.  

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    Ian Ferrin
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/25 00:06:52 (permalink)
    IMO, You might have something quirky w/ the particular x3 file.  If you have an earlier version of sonar installed, you might try opening your tune in that version, saving and re-opening in x3.  You'll lose anything that's new to x3, but it might not be much.  And it might fix your sync issue.  I've had stuff like this happen before.
     
    A workaround would be to create a clicktrack using HH or drumsticks w/ session drummer or dim pro for a measure or two.  Quantize.  Then freeze.  Then line it up visually if it's not perfect.  Then loop for the entire song.  If that's not syncing w/ your tracks, then your tracks aren't syncing w/ each other and you've got some serious weirdness and you'll probably have to use CW support.
     
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    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/25 07:24:57 (permalink)
    Thanks for everyone's help in taking time to give an explanation. Working on it ... will update later.
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    dotonemanband
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    Re: Click track 2014/10/25 08:11:56 (permalink)
    I've tried a few suggestions. Trying to create a drum track ... when I press on the keyboard the sound is slightly delayed. Creates a problem to play along with the metronome.
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