AnsweredIs it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ?

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lawp
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 05:59:44 (permalink)
has the gapless audio train also left the station?

sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
#61
cityrat
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 07:28:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2014/10/21 22:23:05
AndertonIf someone likes Sonar's workflow but wants a program with heavy-duty notation, then they need to make a choice. Some may stick with Sonar because as one user just posted, he used to work with notation but has since found the piano roll superior for his needs. They might choose to rewire a program like Notion, or block out in a notation-oriented program then import into Sonar for mixing. People have different needs and choose the options that meet their needs the best...as they should.
 
For Cakewalk, the returns of implementing a fancy staff view are not commensurate with the resources needed to implement it. I can print out lead sheets; if I need engraving quality (e.g., for musical examples in books) no DAW really does the job anyway. I'm probably fairly typical. Heavy-duty notation is just not that important to the majority of Sonar users, based not on anecdotal evidence but on a statistically valid sampling of the user base. The lack of interest also indicate that if it was implemented, a major (and expensive) marketing effort would be needed to convince people who are using existing notation-friendly programs to switch. There's no guarantee that would be successful, and unless Sonar attracted a whole bunch of new users because of implementing notation, then it's really not worth the resources.



I can't really argue with this - it's all about appropriate use of resources.... I still wish someone would create a hybrid "Staff Roll" like this:
All true - can't
I just think the piano roll is so limited in easily seeing the "Y axis".    If you know staff spacing this is so easy to see the note relationships.  Buchla did it along time ago ....  Of course for anyone wanting "print out" of staff this is useless.
 

 
But I realize the resources spent on this would not be appropriate...  still, would be cool.  (IMHO)
 

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#62
KPerry
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 07:40:35 (permalink)
People who want really good scoring use Sibelius, not Cubase or a.n.other DAW (even in the US where Finale is generally a more popular application): I'm talking music score/book publishers by the way.  There's little point trying to compete with Sibelius (back catalogs, online functionality etc).
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Anderton
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 10:48:41 (permalink)
lawp
has the gapless audio train also left the station?



As you may have noticed it keeps improving incrementally. Don't know when/if it will ever be totally gapless.

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#64
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 11:34:53 (permalink)
I treat Sonar as though it had a gapless audio engine. 99% of the time it chugs along just fine while I add/delete effects or mash other buttons. IT seems way better now than it's ever been. I'm a fan of incremental continuous improvement.

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#65
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 13:17:12 (permalink)
I personally need time to absorb all the features I currently have at my disposal with X3e. Every time I am at a crossroads with upgrading, it's more for the extras, like AD and Nomad and for keeping current support wise than for general core enhancements. I look back at Cakewalk when it was more or less just a midi sequencer, and think " Wow, this far this fast". I'm content with X3 right now. A game changer would probably slow me down more than help. That being said, if the Matrix could make me learn Kung Fu or dodge bullets, I might have to rethink my position.

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#66
Elffin
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 17:19:57 (permalink)
Hmm Interesting ....  Simple notation improvement which would cause no £ at all... Just give me back my note value icons!!!  ...Ben Staton added into his free program Sonar Plus years back and he was hired by cakewalk!..
 
There have been interesting moves in the notation sector which shouldn't be ignored..
 
When avid dumped the UK based Sibelius team they were snapped by Steinberg and are currently creating a new notation package. Presonus (studio 1) bought Notion and it will be interesting to see if it is implemented in studio 1 in future.
 
What would be a hypothetical idea is to make a deal with the "Finale" guys..... they could develop a 'ARA' type score view feature. Would make sense for them and also shore up a problem area for cakewalk. I would pay extra for that sort of feature. 
 
By now I'm sure everyone doesn't expect a music publishing app... but a better score view midi editor...   drum maps already exist in sonar and could be exploited to create articulations (keyswitches) for sample libraries.  
 
Anyhow ... X3 is great... 
#67
SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 22:14:48 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby perfectprint 2014/10/24 15:30:49
 
 
My vote would go for a few simple, yet extremely helpful, GUI enhancements:
 
  1. Near and around minimum Track Height, both the Take Lines and Automation Lanes icons disappear completely, as per this example where Track 5 is minimised:



    When you stretch out the Track Panes horizontally, all the other 'hidden' stuff starts to reappear. Only the Take/Automation Lane icons stay hidden.

    Could these very useful (and oft used by me) icons please remain in view when a track is minimised.

  2. I very rarely use the Browser, and even less frequently the Multidock.

    Please could we at least have the option not to show them at all in their collapsed state. They could easily be made visible again using the appropriate keyboard shortcuts, or from the Views menu.

    I just cannot understand the logic of having them on screen when they're closed.

    I even made a quick animation to show how passionate I am about this:



  3. Please could you make the Control Bar scrollable horizontally?

    Much as the Inspector can be scrolled vertically without the need for scroll handles, could we not have a scrollable Control Bar?

    It is quite the pain to have to go through all the rigmarole of making a hidden Module visible, and then hiding it again, when it could quickly be slid into view with the scroll wheel on the mouse.

    I've considered using Screenshots, but I don't use them either.

    I can't be arsed to make an animation of a scrolling Control Bar, but here's a bit of artistic motion blur to give the impression of a seldom used Module whizzing into view:

 
 
Thanks in advance.
 
 

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#68
scook
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 22:26:39 (permalink)
1) While waiting there are keyboard shortcuts SHIFT+A for automation lanes and SHIFT+T for track lanes
2) The browser can be killed by undocking it and closing the window. This can be saved in a project template for future use. To kill the mutltidock at this time requires Duckbar.
#69
thomasabarnes
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 22:38:28 (permalink)
Elffin
 
What would be a hypothetical idea is to make a deal with the "Finale" guys.....  


 
Man, I was thinking the same thing when Avid bought Sibelius! If Cake could make a deal with Finale for some better notaion software functionality that is better than what is currently available in SONAR (and that's sorta integrated into SONAR), that would be extremely good stuff!
 
But whatever happens, I still love me some SONAR.


"It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant.

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#70
thomasabarnes
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/21 22:45:10 (permalink)
"Please could you make the Control Bar scrollable horizontally?"
 
Now, that's a good idea. I'm all for this. Then, all the modules could be easily available.


"It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant.

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#71
pbognar
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 00:19:34 (permalink)
Elffin
Hmm Interesting ....  Simple notation improvement which would cause no £ at all... Just give me back my note value icons!!!  ...Ben Staton added into his free program Sonar Plus years back and he was hired by cakewalk!..
 
There have been interesting moves in the notation sector which shouldn't be ignored..
 
When avid dumped the UK based Sibelius team they were snapped by Steinberg and are currently creating a new notation package. Presonus (studio 1) bought Notion and it will be interesting to see if it is implemented in studio 1 in future.
 
What would be a hypothetical idea is to make a deal with the "Finale" guys..... they could develop a 'ARA' type score view feature. Would make sense for them and also shore up a problem area for cakewalk. I would pay extra for that sort of feature. 
 
By now I'm sure everyone doesn't expect a music publishing app... but a better score view midi editor...   drum maps already exist in sonar and could be exploited to create articulations (keyswitches) for sample libraries.  
 
Anyhow ... X3 is great... 




                /\
                 |
Yes, this ----
 
No music publishing.  No bloated notation with a thousand symbols.  Just fix the last of the few limitations of the otherwise great SV.  Oh, and the Ben Staton improvements.
 
Honest, I don't want hordes of Cakewalk resources developing a new notation subsystem.  I'd rather have them implementing the real-time latency-free polyphonic guitar to MIDI feature.  ;-)
 
But whatever is said is pointless, because whether X4 is coming yet this year, or early next year, features have long been set.
 
#72
Geo524
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 06:12:51 (permalink)
As far as improvements are concerned for me the list is short, but I would like to see a dedicated mastering/arrange suite similar to what Studio One has. Being able to do some fine tuning and arrangement of songs for an album would be a major plus in my book.
 
The second thing would be improvements to Audiosnap. Not only fixing it so that it works consistently but also making it easier to use. That said I don't use it often but when I do I always have to find my way around it again. Of course if none of the above never happens I still remain a very happy Sonar user.
 

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#73
Karyn
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 06:26:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby perfectprint 2014/10/24 15:30:17
There are some really great ideas in this thread,  but it would be better if they were posted as actual feature requests in the Features & Ideas forum so we can discuss each one in detail and vote for it.
post edited by Karyn - 2014/10/22 08:39:05

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#74
SvenArne
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 06:30:34 (permalink)
+1 to a wholly new AudioSnap. One that's not as likely to insidiously fudge your whole crap up if you're not paying attention editing multitrack drums.
 
Furthermore, while I don't use the staff view much myself, I feel it's the Staff View People's turn to a bone thrown to them this time around. SONAR is a Music Composition and Production package after all, and proper functioning notation tools should be provided IMO.
 
Sven





#75
thomasabarnes
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 11:27:39 (permalink)
Concerning AudioSnap: I think Cakewalk went with Melodyne as a replacement for AudioSnap (or is that a V Vocal replacement)? In the X3 advertisment, they even refer to Melodyne as "...the best pitch correction, time stretching, and audio to MIDI conversion in the business." So if you use Audiosnap for any of those editing functions, it looks like it's likely AudioSnap wont be updated in those functionalities. It's somewhat annoying how we would have to upgrade to Melodyne Editor to get the really good Melodyne functionality, but I guess Cake had to make some kind of deal to get Melodyne integrated into SONAR.
 
I guess I can deal withw incremental improvements toward a totally gapless audio engine. I hardly use Notation myself, but I feel sorry for the SONAR users who have been asking for improvements in the Staff View for years. I hope Cakewalk can help them out some way.
 
EDIT: OK I'm wrong. It's V Vocal that does some of the things that Melodyne does. So, I guess there may be hope for improvements in AudioSnap.
post edited by thomasabarnes - 2014/10/22 11:56:54


"It's not a song till it touches your heart. It's not a song till it tears you apart!" Lyrics of Amy Grant.

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#76
SvenArne
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 13:17:49 (permalink)
thomasabarnes
Concerning AudioSnap: I think Cakewalk went with Melodyne as a replacement for AudioSnap (or is that a V Vocal replacement)? In the X3 advertisment, they even refer to Melodyne as "...the best pitch correction, time stretching, and audio to MIDI conversion in the business." So if you use Audiosnap for any of those editing functions, it looks like it's likely AudioSnap wont be updated in those functionalities.


But you can't edit multitracked drums with Melodyne!
 





#77
bluzdog
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 13:47:33 (permalink)
SvenArne
thomasabarnes
Concerning AudioSnap: I think Cakewalk went with Melodyne as a replacement for AudioSnap (or is that a V Vocal replacement)? In the X3 advertisment, they even refer to Melodyne as "...the best pitch correction, time stretching, and audio to MIDI conversion in the business." So if you use Audiosnap for any of those editing functions, it looks like it's likely AudioSnap wont be updated in those functionalities.


But you can't edit multitracked drums with Melodyne!
 


Yes and no. You can separate drums based on timing i.e. the kick hits on 1 and 3, and select those hits for editing and/or exporting as midi. You can lower the amplitude of a kick or snare in OH's pretty easily. It's not as intuitive polyphonic mode on other sources but it's functional. It's takes some work sorting parts out but it can be done.
 
Rocky
 
#78
SvenArne
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 13:53:47 (permalink)
bluzdog
Yes and no. You can separate drums based on timing i.e. the kick hits on 1 and 3, and select those hits for editing and/or exporting as midi. You can lower the amplitude of a kick or snare in OH's pretty easily. It's not as intuitive polyphonic mode on other sources but it's functional. It's takes some work sorting parts out but it can be done.



Well yeah, but you can't time-stretch multiple audio tracks simultaneously they way we do with Audiosnap, Beat Detective/Elastic Audio and similar! AudioSnap is an essential SONAR feature for me, but you really gotta be careful and know what you're doing lest you totally mess up the phase relationship between the tracks!





#79
epytryga
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 15:29:52 (permalink)
hmm..something like Cubase's "Chord Track" would be a cool addition

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#80
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 18:27:26 (permalink)
I'm seeing a lot of great enhancement and feature requests here. It would be a pity for them to fall on deaf ears.
 
Throw in a thread here and get voting!!!

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#81
kennywtelejazz
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 19:17:05 (permalink)
there certainly are a lot of great ideas for enhancing the users work flow and creativity in SONAR  floating around here in this thread  ……. 
thank you all for feeling comfortable enough to share them here 
 
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#82
cityrat
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 20:05:51 (permalink)
SteveStrummerUK
  1. Please could we at least have the option not to show them at all in their collapsed state. They could easily be made visible again using the appropriate keyboard shortcuts, or from the Views menu.

    I just cannot understand the logic of having them on screen when they're closed.

    I even made a quick animation to show how passionate I am about this:







Ohhhh, man do I agree with you..... that would be awesome to be able to get rid of those gray strips of wasted space.  I get why they're there - lots of people get confused about multiple panes etc.   But PLEASE give us a way to get rid of them
 
 

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#83
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 20:18:57 (permalink)
Agree about the browser and multidock being made to disappear. Great animation too stevestrummer.

I only have track view and inspector always open. I open browser when Iwant to drag in an instrument or vst and I never use multidock. I have control bar hidden most of the time too.
#84
musec03
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 20:22:45 (permalink)
...Thanks for all these thoughts y'all ...in business, when folks want me to work with them over time ...it's made clear we need to recognise "cash is king" in our culture ...therefore ...Cakewalk has to look at it's customer base as a continuing income source ...that means providing new (and better) products... in that light ... I welcome the reasonably priced upgrades, knowing it helps keep the company in good health ...(I hope!) ...now I know some things to hope for!



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#85
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/22 20:27:00 (permalink)
cityrat
Ohhhh, man do I agree with you..... that would be awesome to be able to get rid of those gray strips of wasted space.  I get why they're there - lots of people get confused about multiple panes etc.   But PLEASE give us a way to get rid of them



But is it worth all the forum threads on "SONAR BUG! Multidock, Browser Disappear!!" 
 
If Cakewalk implements this, I would beg that it could not be enabled/disabled with a keyboard binding...

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#86
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/23 01:08:42 (permalink)
Again, you can get rid of the browser and dock by docking everything, floating the dock and closing it (or just hit "D".).  Full time line view.  Except for the dock wanting to, well, dock, when it is open and being moved you can open it wherever and however big.  So I guess that is a feature request - ability to disable automatic docking the dock at the top and bottom.
 
Another thing is move the Dock tabs.  Right now you can't see them, although the latest tabs do appear last (and easy to get to).  However, if you are working on an early edit, it is a lot of scrolling from left to right in the dock.  I guess that is a second thing I'd like in X4.
 
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https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
 
there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
#87
Jimbo 88
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/24 12:22:16 (permalink)
cityrat
Anderton



I can't really argue with this - it's all about appropriate use of resources.... I still wish someone would create a hybrid "Staff Roll" like this:
All true - can't
 
 




 
I REALLY Like this concept..

Cakewalk By Bandlab
Cubase 9.5 Pro
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#88
bandso
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/24 18:39:04 (permalink)
Geo524
As far as improvements are concerned for me the list is short, but I would like to see a dedicated mastering/arrange suite similar to what Studio One has. Being able to do some fine tuning and arrangement of songs for an album would be a major plus in my book.
 
The second thing would be improvements to Audiosnap. Not only fixing it so that it works consistently but also making it easier to use. That said I don't use it often but when I do I always have to find my way around it again. Of course if none of the above never happens I still remain a very happy Sonar user.
 




 
Both of these 100%. These are my biggest issues with X3. Other than that I'm a really happy camper.

Bandlab Platinum and every other toy I can get my hands on...and yes I'm way in debt over this obsession...
#89
bz2838
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Re: Is it even possible to top X 3's performance and features when X 4 comes out ? 2014/10/24 18:45:13 (permalink)
epytryga
hmm..something like Cubase's "Chord Track" would be a cool addition


+1 on chord track, that would be a really good feature, especially for non keyboard players like me......

Purrrfect Audio:  Intel i7 7700k (Kabylake), 32Gig DDR4/2133, Windows 10x64 Pro, USB RME Babyface, Sonar Platinum Current
#90
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