Making a Nasty Sax Sound

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cpkoch
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2014/10/24 22:18:05 (permalink)

Making a Nasty Sax Sound

I'm trying to imitate the Nasty Sax Sound that one hears in the bridge of Fats Domino's Ain't That A Shame.  So far I've vocalized the notes and then popped them into a MIDI Channel. The channel is set to play through one of Cakewalk's TTS1 channels which in turn is set to play back a Bari Sax.  The scheme works  and I am getting a kick out of doing this experiment.  My knowledge of Synthesizers is shallow so I'm not sure how to make the Sax  sound have some character.  At this point it produces a very very mechanical sound with no "Spitting attack", no dynamics, no vibrato etc.  It sounds just like one would expect a raw Midi to sound.  I don't want to encumber anyone but would welcome any suggestions as to how to make the sound closer to what a  real musician might create. Is there, for example, a plugin that does all the work or must I bite the bullet and learn synthesizer sound creation.   

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    johnnyV
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/24 22:51:56 (permalink)
    Well ultimately you could use the Breath controller CC ( look it up) and set your joystick to that and try a few patches. I think some patchs in samplers will respond to velocity. You'll have to dig around your other synths for better samples. TTS-1 is famous for lo-fi sounds. I use it in my backing tracks sometimes.  But I would say the TTS-1 saxes are the worst sounding instruments in there. See what's in Dimension Pro or LE.  
    I would try running it through a amp sim too. 
    I need a better horn section myself and need to spend some time soloing patches. Read Greg Andertons Tips thread for a great way to preview sounds using the browser. 

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    #2
    cpkoch
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/24 23:08:19 (permalink)
    Thanks for the info.  After penning my post I started looking at z3ta+ trying to find a PreSet.  With 1500 or more of them, there must be a  decent "Nasty Sounding Sax"   but the titles of the preset don't lend themselves to my way of interpreting things. I'll take a look at the other Soft Synths and will also check out Craig's tips. Thanks again Johnny!

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    #3
    John
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/25 02:28:23 (permalink)
    You will need to get a sample set with a number articulations. A synth like Z3ta is not going to have that sort of sound. 

    Best
    John
    #4
    TomHelvey
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/25 03:36:18 (permalink)
    Getting a good sax sound with VSTis and MIDI is close to impossible. No matter how good you are at MIDI, you'll always end up with something that sounds like an accordion. It's much better to sample or record a real sax player.
    That being said, counter intuitively, mixing some strings with a MIDI sax track can help.

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    #5
    mettelus
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/25 04:10:39 (permalink)
    It is difficult to get a good sound to replicate something perfectly (or even close) at times, and finding a preset when names often do not reflect the "sound" can be hit or miss as well (I have a truckload of Korg patches with patch names that are "meaningless" when searching). Dimension Pro has several presets that are not bad, and you can also adjust properties of the sound fairly easily within Dim Pro (there are some good top level videos for Dim Pro). I would suggest something that "gets the point across" rather than try to replicate it.
     
    Cheap Trick remade that song with no saxophone, and it is easy to identify the song. (Actually, if the saxophone becomes a hurdle, you can do Cheap Trick's version instead )

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    #6
    Sidroe
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/25 09:04:07 (permalink)
    If I'm correct you are talking about the rough sound a sax player gets from just blowing the crap out of the reed. I had an old Ensoniq EPS sampler that replicated that sound by cranking the vibrato speed as fast as it will go. Thus, when you turned the mod wheel you would get the "Nastiness".
    I do agree that even now the technology still hasn't given us great sax or distorted electric guitar samples. I would look around locally or maybe find someone that would be willing to record the real thing thru the internet.
    I do the bulk of my guitar overdubs now with Dropbox and Gobbler. My buds send me mp3s of the rough mix of their songs. I throw that into Sonar, do my guitar tracks, put the wav files in to Dropbox or Gobbler and they pick them up from there. They fly them in to their project and they are ready to go. I wait for the check in the mail. That's the best part.

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    #7
    js516
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/25 09:45:21 (permalink)
    A physical modelling type synth can make a convincing sax sounds (Yamaha's VL or Ex series, or Korg's MOSS synths for example). I think there is a VST synth, meledonia, but I never tried it.I believe there is a free player for it.

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    #8
    jerrypettit
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/25 10:12:27 (permalink)
    As I recall "Mr. Sax" uses a controller # for "growl".  Is that what you're after?
     
    http://www.samplemodeling.om/en/products_saxes.php
    #9
    Tom Riggs
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/25 10:52:11 (permalink)
    Its called a growl as Jerry mentioned. Its achieved on a real instrument by humming as you play. The rough sound is caused by the discord of the human voice and the vibration of the reed. Its kind of fun to do for real.
    If you can get a decent sax sound to begin with try adding what would be a low pitched male voice drone pitch and blend it in at low volume and see if that will do something for you. I have not tried this myself as I just play the real thing when its time. 
     
    Good Luck.
     

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    #10
    Sanderxpander
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/25 11:18:13 (permalink)
    If there is any kind of serious purpose for the piece you're creating I would say record an actual sax player. Instruments like those just don't lend themselves well to being played from a keyboard (or midi). There are too many variables affecting the timbre all the time that you can't model with samples.

    I'm more inclined to go with Mettelus' suggestion of solving it a different way entirely.
    #11
    cpkoch
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/25 22:58:33 (permalink)
    Thanks all for the great responses.  My objective is not a matter of life and death or even going hungy for a while.  I am only fiddling around with  and trying to learn  for the sake of learning and having fun doing it.  Consequently I am not pressed to get a particular sound.  Instead I simply am wondering what I can expect out of plugins and pre-sets etc. My digital piano does produce a pretty good synthetic Sax at least to my ears. Hence, I figured there exists an ADSR in one of the soft synths settings that'll get close. Meanwhile I have continued to try different  synths and different instrumentation and, as I said yesterday, I am getting a kick out of what can be done.  The  power of Sonar X3, so far, seem limitless.    

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    #12
    william60
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/26 17:24:56 (permalink)
    try "Linplug saxlab 2", its realy good and has a control for growl, works well in sonar x3. also using it with my Akai ewi usb!
     the demo is the full program but it puts a burst of white noise in ever 40 seconds, other than that you get to try it out and see if it what you want! it a lot cheeper than "sax brothers!"wont let me post a link as i'm a new member!
     
    well worth a look!
    #13
    cpkoch
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/26 18:16:52 (permalink)
    william60
    try "Linplug saxlab 2", its realy good and has a control for growl, works well in sonar x3. also using it with my Akai ewi usb!

     
    Thanks!!  I will take a look at the demo!
     

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    BenMMusTech
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/26 18:33:14 (permalink)
    A few things, the gmeidia Mellotron has a decent sounding sax.  I'm not sure about Dim Pro, but it should have.  If you want a growling sound have a listen to King Crimson and their Islands period Mel Collins is a great sax player, if I remember correctly chucking it through a marshal stack is how they got that sound.  So use guitar rig if you have it.
     
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    william60
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/26 19:29:25 (permalink)
    I found that saxlab2 worked really good as a VST in sonar x3, and there over 30 diffrent sax voices, but I got it more for playing my Akai ewi and getting that real sax sound! better than Garritan! think after the "sax brothers sample modling" it the next best thing! and only 1/3 of the price! try the demo out in sonar and you be suprised at the control you have over your sax voice. i love it!
    #16
    kakku
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/27 06:18:22 (permalink)
    I got the old Halion Sonic and it has also nice sax sounds. I remember that there is some kind of sax growl patches too.
    kakku
    #17
    kakku
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/27 06:19:21 (permalink)
    Double post sorry.
    kakku
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    Jimbo 88
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/27 20:37:59 (permalink)
    Best thing to do is go the closest college and find the best sax player there.  Ask him/her to play the part for you.  That, there is a lot more fun than trying to get a synth to sound something like you want.

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    konradh
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/28 14:45:41 (permalink)
    Mr Sax is good.  The newer product by the same company is just called "Saxophones" and has a collection of a bari, tenor, alto, and soprano.
     
    I think the key is getting a smplae library that has a growly articulation based on volume or controller.  A couple of hardware synths I have do that pretty well.

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    #20
    Sacalait
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    Re: Making a Nasty Sax Sound 2014/10/28 22:26:23 (permalink)
    I've had the pleasure of working with Fats Domino.  Trust that you can't get that kind of sound unless you have a "live, and very good" sax player in your studio.  If you do get the pleasure of having a great cat come in, it's gonna be hard to break it. 

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