Helpful ReplyThe "Sonar X4 Release + Survey Question Speculation" katamari super thread.

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sven450
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/29 19:23:10 (permalink)
Well I for one am in for whatever, because I don't own any other DAW software, and even if I could afford it, I sure as hell don't have the time to learn it.  So I took the survey and used the money for a snazzy new Cakewalk t-shirt I can wear while reading spiky forum threads about phantom business practices and the pros and cons of public stock options and their relation to customer satisfaction.  This is great stuff....

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Piet
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/29 19:47:23 (permalink)
When is Sonar X4 coming out?
 
The astrologics  say that X4 will be announced on saturday,
october 31 and released at  the 1. december 2014.
 
Splat
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/29 20:34:15 (permalink)
+1 Craig.
The free version of Survey monkey handles 100 users at a time. I doubt it would be beneficial to ask more than 1000 people (would anybody here like to spend time reading the comments of a 1000 people and send out 10 surveys?). . Also the whole point of a survey is to question customers not cakewalk. Finally it's probably none of our own darn business how cakewalk chooses to operate internally. As customers all we should care about is the product, the support around it and whether or not they strangle kittens in their spare time.

Finally Sonar will be released 1st April 2015. Perhaps.

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Anderton
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/29 21:33:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby swamptooth 2014/10/29 22:52:15
CakeAlexS
As customers all we should care about is the product, the support around it and whether or not they strangle kittens in their spare time.



You'll be happy to know no animals were harmed in the making of Sonar X3, and the grays were very cooperative once we told them that kittens were not to be used as lawn ornaments. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
swamptooth
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/29 23:01:07 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Skyline_UK 2014/10/31 16:51:48
I've worked closely with both statisticians and actuaries in healthcare.  stat folk like representative samples, actuaries like the whole set of data.  the actuarial method works well with required data that is completely collected - things like procedures administered over time.  stats are a different beast.  if you ask the whole user base to take the survey you wind up with skewed results because the hardcore evangelists of the product will respond disproportionately.  typically a smaller random sample will yield better results because you will get a more even distribution of the hardcore users the medium users and the casual users.  
 
 

 
Arvid H. Peterson
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Anderton
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/30 00:29:16 (permalink)
swamptooth
I've worked closely with both statisticians and actuaries in healthcare.  stat folk like representative samples, actuaries like the whole set of data.  the actuarial method works well with required data that is completely collected - things like procedures administered over time.  stats are a different beast.  if you ask the whole user base to take the survey you wind up with skewed results because the hardcore evangelists of the product will respond disproportionately.  typically a smaller random sample will yield better results because you will get a more even distribution of the hardcore users the medium users and the casual users.  

 
The things I learn from this forum...
 
I really hope Cakewalk finishes the forum-to-brain download adapter in time for X4.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
Sanderxpander
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/30 05:32:27 (permalink)
There are three kinds of lies.
Lies, damned lies and statistics.
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 08:19:18 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/10/30 13:16:35
Wow lots of speculation and people reading between the lines and jumping to conclusions. As Andrew said it was just a survey to understand how our users use the software and understand expectations.
A primary intent of ours going forward is to improve agility. As many will attest there are situations where some N months down the road a problem will be detected by some users that impedes their workflow. Or more commonly, it could be a new plugin in the field that has some compatibility issues due to something in SONAR. 
 
I'll share some background into what we do today. In the model we (and may other retail software companies) have today, there is a major release at the end of the year and then a few maintenance releases following where we address any issues that might come up. We also may occasionally add a few new features in these point releases. After or during this period which is typically about 3-4 months post release, we transition fully to development of the next version. After this point it becomes extremely expensive for us to change gears and release an update for a single issue. A product plan is already scheduled and any change like this causes disruption and delays. To ship an update even if it has a single change has repercussions to development, QA, tech support, marketing, documentation etc. This is primarily why we don't do this after a few months post release. As some would attest, this model has can be a source of frustration to users who use the software for a living where an incompatibility can cause loss of workflow. TBH it has been a source of frustration for us in development as well - i.e. often we know how to fix something but can't get it to our users easily or quickly because of the above constraints!
 
We have experimented with a more agile "quickfix" system in the past but it didn't work very well primarily because a lot of thought didn't go into the infrastructure to do this well. So we wanted to rethink how we can design a more fluid system that provides value to our users and also works well for product planning and resource allocation internally. I think if we can figure this out it will be a huge benefit to users. i.e. A system where we can be more responsive to problems *and* provide value on a more frequent basis would solve many issues that the current "waterfall" based product life cycle model cannot possibly address. Its a bit ironic that many companies follow a pretty agile development model and yet the product life cycle still follows the classic yearly release cycle model that has been around since the beginning of time! I think most people will agree that at minimum its time to rethink this. That was the the main purpose of that question :)

Noel Borthwick
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dcumpian
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/30 08:21:47 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
There are three kinds of lies.
Lies, damned lies and statistics.



Statistics aren't lies, they just can be used to support lies and/or damned lies.
 
Regards,
Dan

Mixing is all about control.
 
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Paul P
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 09:13:41 (permalink)
Cakewalk's openness is always welcome and makes it easy to figure out how our needs and desires interact with yours.  However, there seems to be one aspect of all this that isn't getting much consideration, and that is the buy once and live with it for a long time scenario.  As I mentioned somewhere else, I bought Office 2010 Pro and it would never occur to me to upgrade it unless an eventual new computer/OS I had to buy could no longer run it.  This is the way I've always bought software.
 
I bought Sonar in the same frame of mind, after having enjoyed using Kinetic 1 for what, 10 years ?  My needs were simple and it worked just fine.  I don't even remember if there were ever any updates to it, I just bought the box in the store and used that.  Now Sonar is a lot more, but it also seemed to have a lot more wrong with it, back at the beginning of X2 (I got in through the tail end of X1).  Sonar to me has still not met my expectation of buy it and learn to live with it, though X3 may be very close (the sustain pedal issue has me worried).  Reading so much user feedback on these forums certainly distorts my opinion from what I'd form by myself with my current limited use, but the format already gives the impression that it's a type of subscription model.
 
The problem I have with a real subscription model, at least the way I imagine it would be and I'm not presuming what Cakewalk will do, is that it involves constant cash outlay.  I'm not yet on a fixed income (it's actually worse than that at the moment) but I've always bought software with the idea that it's a tool in my toolbox, to be used the best way I can.  I don't spend new money every year on my hammer which I bought 20 years ago.  I can easily imagine a professional situation where a subscription model would be desirable, but I've always thought of Cakewalk as being more of a musician / hobbyist oriented company, the people around here certainly give that impression.
 
Andrew Rossa's remark in the survey thread about perpetual licences is reassuring (though I'm not sure what that means exactly).  My only real fear is one day finding myself with a tool with a show stopping issue for which the only way to have it fixed is to jump into a perpetual payment plan.
 

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dubdisciple
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 09:19:20 (permalink)
YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
 
Buying one magazine is not similar to purchasing a Sonar renewal. The reasonable likeness is to purchasing a year's subscription.  Which is what you do when you purchase most ALL software. These are version subscriptions.
 
I have a bunch of programs that I have not upgraded cuz the current version works for what I purchased it for. These programs include  a number of Sony programs that have NOT been updated. I may purchase upgrades if they provide usefulness.
 
CW's history has been about selling version subscriptions: get all updates until the next version is released for purchase. This has averaged about 14 months. (I think it was sonar 4 that was released in the spring, could have been s5??? and of course the 2 year wait for????)
 
 


If you are going to use my example, please quote correctly and not paraphrase a strawman version to suit your needs. I stated very clearly that no matter how many magazines you buy there is still a difference between purchasing something regularly and subscribing. Sometimes that difference makes no difference in how you use the product. I admit it is a semantic difference but still a fact. I used to buy the newspaper to read on the bus daily and that still did not make me a subscriber.

Also, I'm not one that is up in arms over this anyway. I have commented that an adobe style model would not work with cakewalk and have discussed some of the pros and cons regarding that model as it pertains to Adobe. I think the wild speculation is hilarious over a question but participate since it is a topic of conversation and I happenn to be one of the people using the Adobe model.
dubdisciple
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 09:30:59 (permalink)
kitekrazy1

 Some of the older Adobe products are free from their website.  You can get an older version of Audition and Photoshop from them.  I wonder if their new business model of subscription base has a lot to do with losing their partnership with Apple.  


No offense, but this is absolutely false. This rumor has been dispelled many times. It originally popped up a couple years ago when adobe accidently made a link public meant for people who ALREADY owned CS2 to download files. Adobe does not give away any of these programs free. Most supposed "OEM" versions of older versions ( if not all) are cleverly packaged pirated versions. Adobe simply does not offer pre-cloud versions free or commercially.
dubdisciple
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 09:34:40 (permalink)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/adriankingsleyhughes/2013/01/07/download-adobe-cs2-applications-for-free/


One of manyarticles dispelling that myth. Adobe had a page once dispelling it too.
KPerry
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 09:35:17 (permalink)
Cough, internet subscription, cough :-)
 
Sorry, playing devil's advocate a bit here, but it's not uncommon for us all to only get a service when we are subscribing to it: software is different to some extent, but not radically so.
 
From a business perspective (as a purchaser of serviecs/items not a provider), I'd much rather have a lot of services paid for on subscription rather than out of capital: it makes budgeting easier as well as flexing up and down during good and bad times, and there are often tax benefits too, and in some cases I can easily shift responsibility to the provider and not be worried about obsolescence (eg. if leasing hardware).
 
Again, slightly different for (home) software uses, but not radically.
Anderton
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 09:38:45 (permalink)
Paul P
Cakewalk's openness is always welcome and makes it easy to figure out how our needs and desires interact with yours.  However, there seems to be one aspect of all this that isn't getting much consideration, and that is the buy once and live with it for a long time scenario. 



If Cakewalk disappeared and nothing more happened with X3e, I would continue to make music with it. I don't encounter show-stopper bugs in what I do, just occasional annoyances...but I encounter that in all software, so that sets my expectations.
 
If what you have works, you can keep using it. If you want to buy a new version, I would assume Cakewalk is realistic about recognizing bugs will surface after a product release, and provide some way to offer users fixes for "show-stopper" bugs. There's no question X3 had some issues, but by the time X3e rolled around, there was justification to SONAR veterans saying they felt it was the most stable release yet.
 
What's more likely is that you won't encounter problems going forward with Sonar, but from plug-ins that are yet to be developed and operating systems that don't exist yet. Dealing with those scenarios requires development work, which doesn't come free. I can't imagine a scenario where a company making software today will be issuing free fixes for products that were released in, say, 2013 in order to retain Windows 12 compatibility.
 
Just FYI - one of the reasons why you're seeing less development of "pro" iOS apps is because companies I've talked to (not including CW FWIW) are tired of having to update the program every time Apple makes some slight change to iOS, yet customers expect the update to be free. They simply can't afford to operate that way.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
Anderton
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 09:40:55 (permalink)
The best news I've seen yet is in Noel's post. I always wondered what happened to the "quickfix" idea, which I thought was brilliant. If CW is putting emphasis on how to do that really right, that's cool regardless of how the software is sold.
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
Del
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/30 10:49:08 (permalink)
Anderton
 
 
......I really hope Cakewalk finishes the forum-to-brain download adapter in time for X4.


Craig... now that was darned funny!!!!

Regards,
Del
 
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 10:50:35 (permalink)
The quickfix thing was fine in principle but it caused problems for support since despite its simplicity, some users were making mistakes, didn't know how to rollback etc, so it caused some confusion. Software distribution can be quite complex when you take into account redistributables, OS versions, localization, etc. For a system to do this it has to be more thorough with the back end infrastructure to support it and requires buy in from all departments in the company.
 
Paul P
Sonar to me has still not met my expectation of buy it and learn to live with it, though X3 may be very close (the sustain pedal issue has me worried).  
 



I've said it before *all* software has bugs. Most users just never run into them :) But this issue is a perfect example of where the classic software distribution model fails. It would be way too expensive for us to consider doing an update for just that single issue the way things are structured for us today. Its not as simple as building a fix and releasing it. The version has to be tested on N operating systems, different languages, there are release management considerations, support, etc that all get involved. One reason we are rethinking this is precisely to address one off problems like that one.

Noel Borthwick
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Jyri T.
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Ready to download X4 2014/10/30 11:16:18 (permalink)
It's soon 11/1 --- The Day When They Will Introduce Sonar X4 --- so I've polished my credit card and cleaned the pipes up to the internet for a speedy download... I'm ready!!!
 

Jyri T.
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Re: Ready to download X4 2014/10/30 11:17:04 (permalink)
No, wait, it'll be actually out later this year... whatta bummer...
swamptooth
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/30 11:22:38 (permalink)
Heck I want one!!! :D

 
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Anderton
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 11:23:21 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
 
I've said it before *all* software has bugs. Most users just never run into them :) But this issue is a perfect example of where the classic software distribution model fails. It would be way too expensive for us to consider doing an update for just that single issue the way things are structured for us today. Its not as simple as building a fix and releasing it. The version has to be tested on N operating systems, different languages, there are release management considerations, support, etc that all get involved. One reason we are rethinking this is precisely to address one off problems like that one.

 
Noel, what you are posting is great info and thank you very much for taking the time to participate.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
konradh
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 12:02:20 (permalink)
I don't think this is the right type of application for a subscription service.  Subscriptions make more sense (in my opinion) for tools, very frequently updated software, and enterprise software.

Konrad
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cityrat
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Re: Please don't move to a subscription model 2014/10/30 12:10:10 (permalink)
Thanks Noel for the insight.  Very informative!
 
The only software development model that I've seen successfully implement a continuous development "fix" cycle is Reaper.   Of course it's a *completely* different model, with users performing a sort of beta testing service.   Seems to work for very quick updates, but feature wise it seems much slower. 
 
Seems like bottom line it's a resource issue and depends on what the focus needs to be - can't be everything at once.  And nothing will be perfect for all users, etc 
 
FWIW I've never had a "showstopper" bug (not that my experience is representative of all)  In an any case, I think things (especially now) are much more robust.  I actually *like* the annual-ish release cycle - as long as there is no major issues with overall quality.
 
 

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Del
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Re: Is it true, that cake is moving to a subcription plan? 2014/10/30 12:14:00 (permalink)
Anderton
dubdisciple
Maybe cakewalk should move to a prescription plan?



Free meds for everybody!


Craig, I'm having a hard enough time understanding the nuances of Sonar X3e, if I start using "free meds" I'll never get anything done!!

Regards,
Del
 
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Sanderxpander
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Re: When is Sonar X4 coming out 2014/10/30 12:17:01 (permalink)
dcumpian
Sanderxpander
There are three kinds of lies.
Lies, damned lies and statistics.



Statistics aren't lies, they just can be used to support lies and/or damned lies.
 
Regards,
Dan

It was a quote and intended to be mildly amusing.
TerraSin
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Re: Is it true, that cake is moving to a subcription plan? 2014/10/30 12:27:28 (permalink)
I actually went to look at getting Audition to add for small projects. They want $240 a YEAR for it? No thank you, I believe I will pass, sir.
Jesse G
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Re: Is it true, that cake is moving to a subcription plan? 2014/10/30 12:41:04 (permalink)
I heard Cakewalk was moving to a "Recession Plan"  Give Sonar at super reduced prices for everyone!!!!!
 
 
Peace

Peace,
Jesse G. A fisher of men  <><
==============================
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joden
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Re: Is it true, that cake is moving to a subcription plan? 2014/10/30 12:58:44 (permalink)
What will be funny, is the egg on faces if CW do move in this direction. Maybe these comments should be bookmarked for when CW "heavies"  come out at a later date and say it will be subs based after all. Well they could always trot out the old line  "...well we believed what we were saying at the time..."  that amongst a plethora of other "valid reasons and excuses" for CW being forced down the (subscription) path
scook
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Re: Is it true, that cake is moving to a subcription plan? 2014/10/30 13:07:46 (permalink)
There faces should still be egg free. From what I have read there has been no comments about future purchasing and licensing schemes of Cakewalk products. There have been comments about the survey and product delivery.
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