TremoJem
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Tracking Levels
When I track in Sonar, I can adjust the knobs on my MOTU 8Pre and see the levels change in Sonar.
What should my goal be as far as a number on the track meter for the track I am adjusting?
Thanks.
Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser Most importantly...not enough time. www.studiocat.com jim@studiocat.com
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Anderton
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/30 13:11:23
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You'll get a bunch of different answers, but the main one is don't go into the red. I like to allow about 6 dB of headroom but some people allow more.
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TremoJem
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/30 14:08:04
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When you say 6 dB of headroom, you mean that my meter for that track will read -6 dB...right?
Zero is kinda redlining it, so to lower the level I would be going to -6 or -12.
After I track, I then keep all of my tracks at a preferred -6 to -12 dB in my final mix. That would place the master that I bounce to a stereo track, at about */- 3 dB of the original track level...I am assuming as a result of gain staging.
I could and probably am WAY off here in my understanding of all of this, but it seems that from what I have read, that everyone says to keep tracking at a low level and to have a final mix at a very low level. This is in an effort to allow room for the ME to work.
So, am I even close to understanding this.
Step one: track at low levels...say -6 dB on the Sonar track meter, when adjusting the interface input gain.
Step two: mix so that all tracks do not exceed the original tracking level, but expect the final master that you want to bounce may be of a higher value in dB, as a result of gain staging.
Step three: re-mix if final master buss is in excess of -6 dB.
Thanks
Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser Most importantly...not enough time. www.studiocat.com jim@studiocat.com
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gswitz
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/30 14:31:25
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You can raise the track gain up six. Then just try and avoid red with your pre amp.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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CJaysMusic
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/30 14:32:54
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In 24bit recording, anywhere from -24dB to -12dB is GREAT!!! This gives you 12dB for any occasional spikes and this assures you'll never clip and waste a good recording take. If you think you need to record as hot as possible to get quality, your wrong.
CJ
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konradh
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/30 14:52:56
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I would just add that getting the level too low, or getting very inconsistent levels across tracks makes mixing difficult.
Example: You don't want a lead vocal at -20 and the bass and kick each at -3. You need to have some room to move the track and bus faders both directions during the mix.
Example: If everything is recorded at very low levels, you may have trouble getting your mix up where you want it without a ton of compression (or jacking up the track gain, or normalizing the wavs, or whatever).
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 01:36:08
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I tend to adjust either the master volume on a given soft synth, or the gain on the audio interface for a mic or guitar feed, and if needed (which is rarely), I would use the input gain on the track strip, to where the level is at around -6 or a bit less, keeping the track faders pretty much at default, or dropped a little.
When I have an instrument that is going to change a lot for a given section of a tune, I will more likely set that up on its own track, with its own settings, so that things don't have to move too much from initial rough settings too much. That is the case usually, when I am tracking MY material, as I have a reasonable idea of what the target balances are for instruments and sections.
I have also been lazy and adjusted things with faders/gain only, but I would rather adjust gain down farther down the staging chain than early, so I am not dropping it down early and having to raise it later - just to avoid noise.
As long as there isn't too much level to where clipping occurs, or there is not enough room to mix and master, I think most reasonable settings are likely OK these days. Moderation seems to be the ticket.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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quantumeffect
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 02:03:32
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My target when I track is -6 dB and that continues to be my target all the way through to a final mix.
Dave 8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson "His chops are too righteous." Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 07:09:02
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I also tend to write out the song's sections, in order of importance, and mix to THAT list's order, which usually them puts all the hoopla and bells and whistles and such of the end of the song mixed first, and then work backwards still in order of importance, pulling things back and even muting some stuff along the way, so that it gets easier and easier as you follow things in this direction, pulling a piano part back or dropping some steel string guitar for the second verse, and maybe then being able to leave in some neat flute or french horn sound that otherwise would be too much.
It just makes sense to me that if the end of the song chorus has to be the maximum presence version of the chorus, then starting with it and doing that - giving it everything you can, gives you a known point to keep the prior sections down below, and getting things to calm down is a lot easier than going the other way.
Doing things this way often saves a lot of time, as you may now realize that you might not actually NEED that 10-guitar multi-track 'thing' in the 2nd verse anymore, because it just doesn't fit within what you already KNOW works for the climatic ending choruses and such, because working backwards from the maximum doesn't leave room for that number of instruments without causing massive problems,
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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AT
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 10:14:01
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I try not to get over -6db or have a dip below -20dB for any steady state of the sound. The most important thing is to not go into the red, which can ruin a take. And yes, think of 0 dB as just about as loud as you can go without problems. There is some headroom built into 0 dB, but one good punch of sound can use that up. And remember that the louder you capture the tracks, the more you need to pull all them down come mixing time.
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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DeeringAmps
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 10:46:00
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Best Answer:
"In 24bit recording, anywhere from -24dB to -12dB is GREAT!!! This gives you 12dB for any occasional spikes and this assures you'll never clip and waste a good recording take. If you think you need to record as hot as possible to get quality, your (sic) wrong."
its "you're" CJ, a contraction of " you + are"; but none of us expect you to get it right :-)
Wrong Answer:
"There is some headroom built into 0 dB"
??? I don't think so.
Most Confusing Answer:
"I also tend to write out the song's sections, in order of importance, and mix to THAT list's order, which usually them puts all the hoopla and bells and whistles and such of the end of the song mixed first, and then work backwards still in order of importance, pulling things back and even muting some stuff along the way, so that it gets easier and easier as you follow things in this direction, pulling a piano part back or dropping some steel string guitar for the second verse, and maybe then being able to leave in some neat flute or french horn sound that otherwise would be too much.
It just makes sense to me that if the end of the song chorus has to be the maximum presence version of the chorus, then starting with it and doing that - giving it everything you can, gives you a known point to keep the prior sections down below, and getting things to calm down is a lot easier than going the other way.
Doing things this way often saves a lot of time, as you may now realize that you might not actually NEED that 10-guitar multi-track 'thing' in the 2nd verse anymore, because it just doesn't fit within what you already KNOW works for the climatic ending choruses and such, because working backwards from the maximum doesn't leave room for that number of instruments without causing massive problems,"
What does this have to do with "tracking levels"?
Calibrate your equipment, 0db on a vu meter should be about -18 to -16 on Sonar's meters.
As stated by many above, "peaks" at -6 won't hurt anything. Actually any "peak" that does not exceed 0 won't hurt anything. But I do believe that 0 represents the absolute maximum (as in we are now out of "headroom").
Tom
ps: CJ's advise was/is just as applicable to 16 bit recordings as well. Trying to get "as hot as possible without going over" is/was always a fool's errand. This requires that your outboard gear be running at max gain. Most gear tends to get "edgy" at this point. Think Plexi Marshall with all controls on "10". Great for guitar, not so good for most other applications.
Personal experience;
my early digital recordings all "sucked" for this very reason.
Too much gain on the Alesis 3630 going in.
"Grainy" as hell
Just sayin'...
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM  RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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TremoJem
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 12:11:55
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Tom,
This is great, but (and yes, I have been reading posts about how you pro's have tools to measure this and that, and I could not be more lost, although I kinda/sorta get the jist of it and DO see the importance, I just don't know where to start) how and what do I use/do to calibrate anything.
I just thought that if my interface was never in the red and Sonar's meter for any track did not go above -6 then all was good.
If anyone wants to give me a bulleted list of what to do to have calibration and a measurement tool for the instances I need this or these for, (please define what the intent is and the method/tool required) I would be so very grateful. Or, maybe there is a link or two on this.
Let's face it...you pro's are light years ahead of me.
I read this forum every day and copy and paste stuff to a document, but I can only keep up with so much at one time and yes, there is a LOT to learn. I am reading and watching videos, but heck I am not even sure I know the difference between the dB measurement and the rms measurement. And don't get me going on how to use a compressor like you pros do. I am working on understanding compressors and think I have a handle on what the overall end result or hi-level view is, but to know what tool to pick and why... and of course knowing how to use it like you pro's...well I am still working on this.
I swear...if I had time an money I would seriously be going to engineering (sound) classes at night.
Thanks to all of you for all of your help.
Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser Most importantly...not enough time. www.studiocat.com jim@studiocat.com
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drewfx1
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 12:19:08
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1. You don't ever want a stray peak to go over 0dBFS. Ever. So leave ample room. And then some.
2. You don't want noise from your audio interface to be audible, especially if you have to add gain to the track later. But, especially with 24bit audio, this is not likely to be much of a problem with a decent interface, so you can pretty much ignore it.
3. Therefore see #1.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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DeeringAmps
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 12:30:14
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Trem,
Trust me I am NOT an audio "Expert".
That being said:
In re-reading your question(s), you are "fine" with the MOTU gear.
If you're peaking at -6 in Sonar, all is good with your signal chain.
I also see why Robert went to such lengths in explaining "good" mixing practices
(Robert my sincere apologies for the label "Most Confusing").
Carry On!
T
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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Anderton
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 12:31:14
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A few fine points...if you record at -24 dB, you're losing about 4 bits of resolution. With 24-bit converters, due to quantization noise, circuit board layouts, "glue" components used, etc. you'll often have 20-22 "real" bits of resolution. So taking off 4 bits now yields 16-18 bits of resolution. However - and this is important - those are 16-18 real bits, in other words, even at 16 bits you have the full dynamic range of 96 dB. With 16-bit converters, you don't get 16 "real" bits but more like 14 and in poorly-designed consumer gear, sometimes as little as 12.
I've found that if I aim for peaks to hit -6, then I'm not going to go over. But I have pretty predictable levels. The advice about leaving more headroom can save a session. I'd much rather have an increase in noise that's for all practical purposes theoretical than an "over" that ruins a take. -12 should be enough to accommodate over-enthusiastic vocalists or whatever; it all depends on how safe you want to be. With a live recording where you only get one shot, -20 or even -24 may make the difference between having a recording you can use and one that's useless.
The only other potential issue with recording at a low level is needing to bring up the track gain control to hit compressors and distortion hard enough when mixing. However, with SONAR's available 18 dB of gain, this shouldn't be a problem. You can also increase the level of the audio itself once you have audio that's been recorded without distortion.
Finally, there's a phenomenon called inter-sample distortion. Most meters indicate the value of the samples that are taken, but not the result of those samples going through a smoothing filter on playback. The smoothing filter can actually create levels higher than those indicated by the samples. So it's also good practice to leave some headroom on playback at the master out in anticipation of the audio going through a smoothing filter after being converted back to analog. I've found -3 dB is usually enough, but not always.
SSL offers a free download on their site of a meter plug-in that can indicate inter-sample distortion. It's worth inserting into your master bus so you can make sure your levels won't lead to distortion on playback.
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Anderton
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 12:35:39
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TremoJem
I am working on understanding compressors and think I have a handle on what the overall end result or hi-level view is, but to know what tool to pick and why... and of course knowing how to use it like you pro's...well I am still working on this.
You might find this article helpful. The following may sound facetious, but I'm sincere...all that matters is whether the music has emotional impact for a listener. If technical limitations prevent that from happening, then zero in on one limitation at a time and fix it. For example if the limitation is "sounds too bassy," time to learn about EQ.
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drewfx1
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 12:54:51
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Anderton
A few fine points...if you record at -24 dB, you're losing about 4 bits of resolution. With 24-bit converters, due to quantization noise, circuit board layouts, "glue" components used, etc. you'll often have 20-22 "real" bits of resolution. So taking off 4 bits now yields 16-18 bits of resolution. However - and this is important - those are 16-18 real bits, in other words, even at 16 bits you have the full dynamic range of 96 dB. With 16-bit converters, you don't get 16 "real" bits but more like 14 and in poorly-designed consumer gear, sometimes as little as 12.
It should be added here that once the quantization error level is more than a little below the noise from the room/mic/preamps/etc. you will gain nothing by having more bits. Those other noise levels will ultimately determine how many bits you need for recording.
SSL offers a free download on their site of a meter plug-in that can indicate inter-sample distortion. It's worth inserting into your master bus so you can make sure your levels won't lead to distortion on playback.
Realistically, if you leave at least 3dB of headroom you will never get distortion due to intersample peaks for anything except test signals.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 13:43:55
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One thing I have noticed is that the pro guys who started sharing the idea that you don't have to record with 24bit as hot as you would in 16bit seem to have pro grade A to D converters where 0dBFS is calibrated to +24dBu at the analog input. Their preamps are running in a sweet spot and they can bring stuff in at +10dBu and leave lots of analog and digital headroom.
This scenario is a lot different than using a cheezy usb powered I/O box where the 0dBFS on the 24bit digital side is calibrated to +6dBu at the analog input. If you have a preamp that runs easily up to +20dBu but you can't use it past +6dBu... you may never be in a sweet spot.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 13:46:50
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I've never met anyone who can actually hear an intersample peak during music playback.
If you are running at 44.1kHz an intersample peak will be a very fast chirp happening at 22.05kHz or greater. Good luck trying to hear that.
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TremoJem
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 14:24:16
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Love the link Craig.
Love the chattering back and forth about the dbu etc.
Although 50% of it is over my head...I am working on figuring out the rest.
Hey, that is what Google is for...and of course, this forum.
Purrrfect Audio LLC Pro Studio, Sonar X3e PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - Dell Inspiron 1760, Sonar 7 PE X64, Win7 Pro 64Bit - iZotope Ozone 5 & Alloy 2 - MOTU Audio Express & 2 MOTU 8Pre - Glyph & Lacie External HDs - Roland A-800Pro - Mackie MR5mkIII - Shure - AKG - Sennheiser Most importantly...not enough time. www.studiocat.com jim@studiocat.com
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Anderton
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 15:02:05
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mike_mccue
I've never met anyone who can actually hear an intersample peak during music playback.
I don't either. But many CD duplication houses will reject a project for duplication if there are overs.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 15:10:36
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All the good replication houses should be doing that, regardless of whether it's an intersample over or a multi sample over.
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drewfx1
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 15:31:21
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mike_mccue
One thing I have noticed is that the pro guys who started sharing the idea that you don't have to record with 24bit as hot as you would in 16bit seem to have pro grade A to D converters where 0dBFS is calibrated to +24dBu at the analog input. Their preamps are running in a sweet spot and they can bring stuff in at +10dBu and leave lots of analog and digital headroom.
This scenario is a lot different than using a cheezy usb powered I/O box where the 0dBFS on the 24bit digital side is calibrated to +6dBu at the analog input. If you have a preamp that runs easily up to +20dBu but you can't use it past +6dBu... you may never be in a sweet spot.
I'm curious as to how you're defining "sweet spot" here.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/10/31 15:33:41
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☄ Helpfulby drewfx1 2014/10/31 15:45:39
It's the place where the canned soul emulation kicks in and everything sounds groovy.
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DeeringAmps
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/11/01 09:25:11
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Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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CJaysMusic
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/11/01 11:26:10
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DeeringAmps
Best Answer:
"In 24bit recording, anywhere from -24dB to -12dB is GREAT!!! This gives you 12dB for any occasional spikes and this assures you'll never clip and waste a good recording take. If you think you need to record as hot as possible to get quality, your (sic) wrong."
its "you're" CJ, a contraction of " you + are"; but none of us expect you to get it right :-)
Wrong Answer:
"There is some headroom built into 0 dB"
??? I don't think so.
Most Confusing Answer:
"I also tend to write out the song's sections, in order of importance, and mix to THAT list's order, which usually them puts all the hoopla and bells and whistles and such of the end of the song mixed first, and then work backwards still in order of importance, pulling things back and even muting some stuff along the way, so that it gets easier and easier as you follow things in this direction, pulling a piano part back or dropping some steel string guitar for the second verse, and maybe then being able to leave in some neat flute or french horn sound that otherwise would be too much.
It just makes sense to me that if the end of the song chorus has to be the maximum presence version of the chorus, then starting with it and doing that - giving it everything you can, gives you a known point to keep the prior sections down below, and getting things to calm down is a lot easier than going the other way.
Doing things this way often saves a lot of time, as you may now realize that you might not actually NEED that 10-guitar multi-track 'thing' in the 2nd verse anymore, because it just doesn't fit within what you already KNOW works for the climatic ending choruses and such, because working backwards from the maximum doesn't leave room for that number of instruments without causing massive problems,"
What does this have to do with "tracking levels"?
Calibrate your equipment, 0db on a vu meter should be about -18 to -16 on Sonar's meters.
As stated by many above, "peaks" at -6 won't hurt anything. Actually any "peak" that does not exceed 0 won't hurt anything. But I do believe that 0 represents the absolute maximum (as in we are now out of "headroom").
Tom
ps: CJ's advise was/is just as applicable to 16 bit recordings as well. Trying to get "as hot as possible without going over" is/was always a fool's errand. This requires that your outboard gear be running at max gain. Most gear tends to get "edgy" at this point. Think Plexi Marshall with all controls on "10". Great for guitar, not so good for most other applications.
Personal experience;
my early digital recordings all "sucked" for this very reason.
Too much gain on the Alesis 3630 going in.
"Grainy" as hell
Just sayin'...
Thank you for the English lesson. If your going to dissect post for grammatical errors, please do it to all of them and not just mine. You'll (you + will) find that a majority of them have them.
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Anderton
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/11/01 11:44:33
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CJaysMusic
If your going to dissect post for grammatical errors, please do it to all of them and not just mine. You'll (you + will) find that a majority of them have them.
That's not tru! Their all perfect.
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DeeringAmps
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Re: Tracking Levels
2014/11/01 15:15:02
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Im prety shur ya ment purfct, didnt ja? CJ, I meant no offense. I only corrected it because I was quoting you. But let's be honest, you are right up there with the best.  T
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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