Helpful ReplyThat fine line between mixing and mastering...

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Rain
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/22 02:05:55 (permalink)
BenMMusTech
 
That's how I work these days, the screen never lies in that regard.  I can see from that screen shot that there is a nasty bump at around 70ish Hz, and one that could be tackled in a couple of ways, either use a low-cut filter and do a general clean or maybe just a shelving filter and gently massage it out, actually there are four ways, or a general EQ and carve it out or finally a multi-band compressor.  But if you are in the mixing stage and about to go into the mastering stage...the question is what is causing this issue?  The mix from that screen shot is not very even.
 
Ben 




It's a screen shot I found online ;) - my DAW doesn't go online these days, except to authorize stuff or to quickly put a mix on one of the other local machines. You gotta love Airdrop!

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TremoJem
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/22 14:11:40 (permalink)
Sooo...here we go. Don't slam me too hard.
 
I kinda mix/mastered all at the same time too...kinda.
 
I mixed to busses and mixed busses to a master and then used Ozone5 on the master, but only after the mix was good.
 
I will say that I will now mix to a buss and then bounce to a stereo track and then export/copy to another project and then wait awhile before mastering.
 
I did suffer from horrible ear fatigue and fatigue from the material in general.
 
So I see great value in waiting.
 
Let me know what you think of this newbie approach.
 
TNX

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Rain
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/22 14:58:33 (permalink)
ODD - though this thread keep being bumped, I can't read recent replies. No link to page 2.
 
EDIT: that fixed it.

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Rain
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/22 15:10:14 (permalink)
MakeShift
I think you hire a Mastering Engineer depending on the quality of the end product you are expecting to obtain.  If you are a professional musician wanting to put out polished professional work, you hire people like Danny and Jeff that have REAL skins on the wall.  You would probably do best to track in a true studio environment as well.....with real instruments.  If your a home studio artist posting 256 mp3 files, you can do fine small mastering your own. 
 
I feel very confident that if either Danny or Jeff were to Master a project that I did, it would turn out far better than what I could do myself, even though I have been doing this for 10 years as well.  It's called experience, quality equipment and tested environment.  There is a reason that clientele still go to the proven, for the professional end product.     




Ever since I've started working on this project a few years ago, it was clear in my mind that if we were to release anything, I'd at least consult Danny, possibly have him work some of his magic. But at least hire him for a bit of input.
 
But that depends on what happens with the project. Me, I'm all for the home made, independent  album, but I can see how my wife could wish to bring it up a few levels, go to bigger studios, and all.
 
But considering that you don't make records to make music anymore, you might as well do things your way, take the time, and make it more of a personal, artistic statement. 

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michaelhanson
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/22 15:20:43 (permalink)
But considering that you don't make records to make music anymore, you might as well do things your way, take the time, and make it more of a personal, artistic statement.

 
Yep, that's pretty much where I am at these days.  Plus, I am on a mission to learn how to do things myself.  If I had a prayer in the world of ever selling a couple thousand copies of anything, I would go with Danny in a NYM.  If your wife will use the songs for her professional portfolio, it may be something you consider.
post edited by MakeShift - 2014/10/22 15:33:18

Mike

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BenMMusTech
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/22 17:11:11 (permalink)
Rain
MakeShift
I think you hire a Mastering Engineer depending on the quality of the end product you are expecting to obtain.  If you are a professional musician wanting to put out polished professional work, you hire people like Danny and Jeff that have REAL skins on the wall.  You would probably do best to track in a true studio environment as well.....with real instruments.  If your a home studio artist posting 256 mp3 files, you can do fine small mastering your own. 
 
I feel very confident that if either Danny or Jeff were to Master a project that I did, it would turn out far better than what I could do myself, even though I have been doing this for 10 years as well.  It's called experience, quality equipment and tested environment.  There is a reason that clientele still go to the proven, for the professional end product.     




Ever since I've started working on this project a few years ago, it was clear in my mind that if we were to release anything, I'd at least consult Danny, possibly have him work some of his magic. But at least hire him for a bit of input.
 
But that depends on what happens with the project. Me, I'm all for the home made, independent  album, but I can see how my wife could wish to bring it up a few levels, go to bigger studios, and all.
 
But considering that you don't make records to make music anymore, you might as well do things your way, take the time, and make it more of a personal, artistic statement. 




 
Yea but that's kind of my point, I make "art" or fart for want of a better word.  The paradigm of bands, studios and teams making records these days are over IMO.  Hell even the word record is an anachronism, you'd be better off recording a killer single these days if you still wanted to record in the old ways.
 
In all honestly though mixing isn't hard or is mastering, recording as a recording engineer, however now there is an art I still struggle with.  Yea I can get good results when I have time and I try but it's been so long since I did a proper session I'd be hell rusty.  But that is where the real pixie dust is created, the rest is dead easy.  But again I have had 15 years of mixing experience, in the old days I would have been a mix engineer because mixing is the closest thing to a visual experience and because I'm a visual artist in some ways, its where my strength is, that and researching all the old techniques and transferring them into digital form.
 
Ben  

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Danny Danzi
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/22 18:09:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/10/22 22:57:53
Rain
MakeShift
I think you hire a Mastering Engineer depending on the quality of the end product you are expecting to obtain.  If you are a professional musician wanting to put out polished professional work, you hire people like Danny and Jeff that have REAL skins on the wall.  You would probably do best to track in a true studio environment as well.....with real instruments.  If your a home studio artist posting 256 mp3 files, you can do fine small mastering your own. 
 
I feel very confident that if either Danny or Jeff were to Master a project that I did, it would turn out far better than what I could do myself, even though I have been doing this for 10 years as well.  It's called experience, quality equipment and tested environment.  There is a reason that clientele still go to the proven, for the professional end product.     




Ever since I've started working on this project a few years ago, it was clear in my mind that if we were to release anything, I'd at least consult Danny, possibly have him work some of his magic. But at least hire him for a bit of input.
 
But that depends on what happens with the project. Me, I'm all for the home made, independent  album, but I can see how my wife could wish to bring it up a few levels, go to bigger studios, and all.
 
But considering that you don't make records to make music anymore, you might as well do things your way, take the time, and make it more of a personal, artistic statement. 




I think you guys are both spot on here and are thinking the right way. I also think Ben went a bit over-board on what he thinks about this and has lost the significance. Let's totally remove the term "mastering engineer" for a second. Though I still think it's a necessity in certain situations, what you guys said above nails it perfectly. That said...there are important things to consider that I'd like to reiterate.
 
1. The extra set of ears from someone you trust is immensely important. More so than any mastering engineer, that person that can hear two gnats getting it on in the other room is worth his/her weight in gold if you are serious about your music. Even if you're just doing digital downloads.
 
2. I can't stress this enough. You recorded the music, you mixed it and listened to it far too many times and have lived with it too much to be subjective the right way. If you are using one set of monitors, you have the possibility to cloud your judgment further. Your judgement will never be where it should be...and I didn't have to go to school and get a degree to tell you that.
 
If this is for your head, it's fine to do whatever you want. If it's for sale, don't do what everyone else is doing to degrade music. Send it to someone. Heck try me first, I won't even take your money if I can't help you and I'll give you advice on how to mix the thing better if needed before we even master it as part of the package. That's not meant to be a shameless plug...it's meant to be truthful and tell it like it is.
 
3. Mastering is still needed. Whether you are going to vinyl or not, it's nice to level things and work up an eq curve that works for your mix as well as your entire album. It's really nice when you have someone doing this that knows what they are doing. Not all songs need extensive mastering. Most times when the mix is right, a little polish is all that needs to be done. The question is, can you really make the right call to do that without over-doing it? Most can't.
 
4. Relying on analyzers: You already lost if you watch these things too closely. I totally disagree with anyone living by this way of thinking. Don't fall into this trap and don't listen to anyone that tells you to....regardless of what degree they have.
 
I've mixed and mastered so many albums, I'd be curious as to how many I've actually done. Does that make me an expert? No...it makes me a dude that mixed and mastered a lot of albums. LOL! What I HAVE found out in doing so many is that there are times when your analyzers give you incredible stats where the song does not sound good....and there are times when you have a crappy looking analyzer yet the song sounds good. Don't EVER take a look at something and assume that little bump you see is a problem.
 
That little bump may happen one time in the song. Resetting your meters and watching them closely REALLY tells the story. This is one of the greatest things in Sonar's wave form preview. You can see a peak being created in real time so you know where it is. Ben was quick to jump on that bump he saw, Rain...without even hearing it. A HUGE mistake if you just cut it.
 
You listen to the music and believe what your ears and monitors are telling you. If you hear a problem, this is when you turn to your analyzer for a bit of help. Even there, they are not the be all end all of sorting out your problems. One little "whoomf" from a high gain guitar chug that may not be high passed enough and it will throw 120 Hz through the roof....you see this on the analyzer and curb 120 Hz. That's not only the wrong move, it's absolutely ludicrous.
 
We have another thread going on about controlling peaks. This right here counts as a frequency peak, which is different than a transient peak. Having an analyzer jump high one time showing you an off-set curve is nothing to be alarmed about. How does it sound? Is the bump you get making the material sound bad in that spot? These are the things to question.
 
I can go on and on here and then argue with Ben, pistol pete and anyone else that feels the need to take a shot at me. I really don't care to do that and am perfectly happy with who I am, what I do, as well as how my material sounds at the end of the day. My clients are happy too and I thank God every night for the business that comes my way.
 
At the end of the day, you guys should do whatever makes sense to you...but always look into the sources that you listen to. If a person can't lead by example in this field, 7 times out of 10 they just become a windbag of useless jargon while polluting the minds of those who are really in search of knowledge. This field is difficult enough as is without those types ruining it for the rest of us. Choose wisely. :)
 
-Danny

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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/22 19:46:23 (permalink)
Danny, 
If you were in town right now I'd buy you a nice cold beer.  Bravo to your reply here.
 
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/22 20:49:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/10/22 22:58:24
"...but always look into the sources that you listen to. If a person can't lead by example in this field, 7 times out of 10 they just become a windbag of useless jargon while polluting the minds of those who are really in search of knowledge. This field is difficult enough as is without those types ruining it for the rest of us. Choose wisely. :)"
 
-Danny


Danny, you gave me that same advice some 4-5 years ago and it has been some of the best ever given me.

Mike

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Rain
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/22 23:16:27 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
 
At the end of the day, you guys should do whatever makes sense to you...but always look into the sources that you listen to. If a person can't lead by example in this field, 7 times out of 10 they just become a windbag of useless jargon while polluting the minds of those who are really in search of knowledge. This field is difficult enough as is without those types ruining it for the rest of us. Choose wisely. :)
 
-Danny




This!
 
I first started recording in the late 90s and I can honestly say that I have suffered the effects of that pollution.
 
Took me lots of hard work to re-balance myself and recover - I suspect that I'd be better at what I do if I hadn't let those things get to me. Right now, I'm at a point where I think I'm hearing things for what they are, or at least, closer to it.
 
 

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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/23 16:51:03 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
Rain
MakeShift
I think you hire a Mastering Engineer depending on the quality of the end product you are expecting to obtain.  If you are a professional musician wanting to put out polished professional work, you hire people like Danny and Jeff that have REAL skins on the wall.  You would probably do best to track in a true studio environment as well.....with real instruments.  If your a home studio artist posting 256 mp3 files, you can do fine small mastering your own. 
 
I feel very confident that if either Danny or Jeff were to Master a project that I did, it would turn out far better than what I could do myself, even though I have been doing this for 10 years as well.  It's called experience, quality equipment and tested environment.  There is a reason that clientele still go to the proven, for the professional end product.     




Ever since I've started working on this project a few years ago, it was clear in my mind that if we were to release anything, I'd at least consult Danny, possibly have him work some of his magic. But at least hire him for a bit of input.
 
But that depends on what happens with the project. Me, I'm all for the home made, independent  album, but I can see how my wife could wish to bring it up a few levels, go to bigger studios, and all.
 
But considering that you don't make records to make music anymore, you might as well do things your way, take the time, and make it more of a personal, artistic statement. 




I think you guys are both spot on here and are thinking the right way. I also think Ben went a bit over-board on what he thinks about this and has lost the significance. Let's totally remove the term "mastering engineer" for a second. Though I still think it's a necessity in certain situations, what you guys said above nails it perfectly. That said...there are important things to consider that I'd like to reiterate.
 
1. The extra set of ears from someone you trust is immensely important. More so than any mastering engineer, that person that can hear two gnats getting it on in the other room is worth his/her weight in gold if you are serious about your music. Even if you're just doing digital downloads.
 
2. I can't stress this enough. You recorded the music, you mixed it and listened to it far too many times and have lived with it too much to be subjective the right way. If you are using one set of monitors, you have the possibility to cloud your judgment further. Your judgement will never be where it should be...and I didn't have to go to school and get a degree to tell you that.
 
If this is for your head, it's fine to do whatever you want. If it's for sale, don't do what everyone else is doing to degrade music. Send it to someone. Heck try me first, I won't even take your money if I can't help you and I'll give you advice on how to mix the thing better if needed before we even master it as part of the package. That's not meant to be a shameless plug...it's meant to be truthful and tell it like it is.
 
3. Mastering is still needed. Whether you are going to vinyl or not, it's nice to level things and work up an eq curve that works for your mix as well as your entire album. It's really nice when you have someone doing this that knows what they are doing. Not all songs need extensive mastering. Most times when the mix is right, a little polish is all that needs to be done. The question is, can you really make the right call to do that without over-doing it? Most can't.
 
4. Relying on analyzers: You already lost if you watch these things too closely. I totally disagree with anyone living by this way of thinking. Don't fall into this trap and don't listen to anyone that tells you to....regardless of what degree they have.
 
I've mixed and mastered so many albums, I'd be curious as to how many I've actually done. Does that make me an expert? No...it makes me a dude that mixed and mastered a lot of albums. LOL! What I HAVE found out in doing so many is that there are times when your analyzers give you incredible stats where the song does not sound good....and there are times when you have a crappy looking analyzer yet the song sounds good. Don't EVER take a look at something and assume that little bump you see is a problem.
 
That little bump may happen one time in the song. Resetting your meters and watching them closely REALLY tells the story. This is one of the greatest things in Sonar's wave form preview. You can see a peak being created in real time so you know where it is. Ben was quick to jump on that bump he saw, Rain...without even hearing it. A HUGE mistake if you just cut it.
 
You listen to the music and believe what your ears and monitors are telling you. If you hear a problem, this is when you turn to your analyzer for a bit of help. Even there, they are not the be all end all of sorting out your problems. One little "whoomf" from a high gain guitar chug that may not be high passed enough and it will throw 120 Hz through the roof....you see this on the analyzer and curb 120 Hz. That's not only the wrong move, it's absolutely ludicrous.
 
We have another thread going on about controlling peaks. This right here counts as a frequency peak, which is different than a transient peak. Having an analyzer jump high one time showing you an off-set curve is nothing to be alarmed about. How does it sound? Is the bump you get making the material sound bad in that spot? These are the things to question.
 
I can go on and on here and then argue with Ben, pistol pete and anyone else that feels the need to take a shot at me. I really don't care to do that and am perfectly happy with who I am, what I do, as well as how my material sounds at the end of the day. My clients are happy too and I thank God every night for the business that comes my way.
 
At the end of the day, you guys should do whatever makes sense to you...but always look into the sources that you listen to. If a person can't lead by example in this field, 7 times out of 10 they just become a windbag of useless jargon while polluting the minds of those who are really in search of knowledge. This field is difficult enough as is without those types ruining it for the rest of us. Choose wisely. :)
 
-Danny




Hi Danny, I've taken my time to refrain a response.  Firstly I made it clear that I was musing about another way but still answering the question in my own way.
Second, I made it clear that you and Jeff were the boffins, maybe a backhanded compliment :) but still a compliment.  I still believe that you two are firmly in the past, in regards to your skill set.  But they are relevant still if you want that sound...i.e. a band in a studio.
Third, I gave a quick analysis to the pic Rain posted and if you had noticed, which I think you did...good scholars always know how to filter information; I actually said because you were mixing and mastering at the same time I would go back and hunt for the anomaly in the mix i.e. fix it at the source.  Handy because you are mixing and mastering at the same time.  I now know I fell into a trap...ha ha ha great.
Finally, I can say with some authority that my system works, not just because of my silly bits of toilet paper but because I took the last lot of mixes into the uni studio a couple of months ago...a professional studio with treatment and a sound meter and guess what?? They were in range, not perfect but they were there.  The levels were correct, the EQ was correct, everything was correct.  And I mixed and mastered the tracks at the same time.  A couple of the tracks took a little longer to pull together but essentially I applied the technique I am talking about.
 
Now they aren't band tracks, I don't believe in that paradigm, and nor does the music listening public either.  I have said for many years now I was talking about a for of sonic painting, I'm only just staring to understand enough to create the language to explain what it is I am talking about.
 
In conclusion, I was respectful to you and jeff, perhaps with a backhander but still respectful, I mentioned the very best boffins...ever and put both your names in the same context.
 

"A new language requires a new technique. If what you're saying doesn't require a new language, then what you're saying probably isn't new." ~Philip Glass
 
Ben
    

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#41
Jeff Evans
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/24 15:59:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2014/10/24 16:01:39
I think Ben uses some funny words.  Actually words I have not heard in a long time.  I like the choice of the word boffin in this context.  I hope that Ben thinks that people like myself and Danny are people who can survive and have clients and create an income from what we do and enjoy it too at the same time!  I know I certainly enjoy my work.  I certainly respect those who can do that consistently.  You can be boffin about it too and that is a good thing, it is why people come back or come to you because you might go that extra mile. Being a boffin can help you towards being a perfectionist to some extent.
 
Perfectionism can be helpful in mixing and mastering to which I think they can co exist but I like treating and doing those jobs separately.  Of course you can do it at the same time and we all do for various reasons.  But overall I feel when they are treated as very separate things you can get maximum results from both processes.
 
One thing to take into account is if you tend to only produce one genre of music or sound design say then doing combined mixing and mastering may work.  And work very well.  But not when you have mixed and mastered many different projects covering many genres.  You soon learn that one approach won't cut it for other things. If old school mastering later after a mix and with someone different does the job then that should be the way it goes.  And it often is in real life.
 
I am happy being a boffin  (In all the right areas only!)  But you can get all caught up too much in the technical stuff too and trust your ears.  You can be too much of a boffin on the technical jarb. When really all it takes is a cool guitar lick or drum fill to make you smile.  The music is always the number one for me.
 

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#42
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/24 18:10:06 (permalink)
Ha, Ha Jeff...yep words are my skill, or one of my skills.  I'm very verbose, in fact I revel in my verbosity and large lexicon.  I've been called a poet and that's what I am, it's just I use digital technology as my words.  I'm glad you did not take umbrage at the inference of being called a boffin lol.
 
I did not take umbrage and was cognisant of the line about sound design.  Thanks but remember, cutting a slither of strings out of a stereo track recorded with a ixy IPhone microphone and preparing it for granular synthesis is tricky, same when cutting a kick drum too, especially if it's recorded with a crowd walking past in quadrant.  And creating string sounds from orchestral instruments, adding transient shapers, two different types of reverbs, tape and console emulation, now that's an entirely different skill set too.  I may not be a studio boffin, but these days I am a DAW, sound designer, madman extraordinaire boffin. 
 
My last piece, which is the sonata, and has an accompanying video, took over 50 hours...just the construction alone.  This does not take into consideration, the improvisation practice on guitar, to come up with all the interlocking riffs and chord parts, which includes some roman numeral analysis...composition.  The gathering of the found sounds and found video and finally the assembly of the video itself another whole day.  Ah boffins, I'm more like a boffin than I thought...just not a studio or mastering engineer boffin, but I can do both if necessary.  But as you can imagine, I would find it quite boring.
 
Ben    

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Starise
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/27 14:36:36 (permalink)
 Rain....can you put up the mix? 
 
Even the best engineers will sometimes disagree on how a mix should sound. I think there are multiple ways to work. Good engineers have found a way that works for them. Obvious things like ear fatigue can affect us all. Two sets of ears are always better than one unless the second set doesn't tell you the truth. In this case I think a firm and honest individual is best. I have attempted to mix and master by going back and forth between mix examples...listening with master plug-ins off, then master plug-in  on etc..... I don't always get the best results that way but I think if done taking everything into consideration it can work. If my cpu will handle it I'll even mix the whole thing in one swipe. As long as the numbers crunch I don't really see the need to make it more complicated. I do a kind of A/B thing between tracks, busses and master while mixing sometimes. In my thinking resting between mixes is probably the best advice, that and having a second opinion.
 
But that's how I work sometimes and I'm not telling anyone else that this is the only way and it probably isn't the best way. When you get to the mastering stage things are supposed to be panned and eq'd...all automation is done.Pretty much all that's left are the end details without getting back into the mix. If you did a good job up to that point I sometimes question why it's so important to get help for that last part. I mean...you made the rest sound ok...how much more difficult can it be to try the mix over different systems and several sets of monitors or ARC or what ever you're using?
 
The difference seems to be approaching the mix from a more left brain direction...looking at levels compared to all tracks and compared to good music master  made in those millions of dollars studios. 12 songs aren't all probably going to need the same treatment, so I can see where it would get more complicated than simply mixing one song. From what I see a lot of comparison and evaluation is in order along with the right know how and the right tools to get that  final sheen on it...sometimes it can be difficult to let your baby go. I'm sure Jeff and Danny can probably tell you stories where not every client loved the end result although I'll bet 95% of the time they do like it. Mastering engineers didn't get to be mastering engineers without mixing masters...so if you feel like giving it a shot I say jump in and get your feet wet...what's the worst thing that can happen? Your mixes might suck. If they do you can always go back to the drawing board. I think it's a different approach entirely. We can get the tools to do it pretty easily now, it's all more a matter of using those tools and knowing how.
 
I hear mixes from people who can barely afford an inexpensive interface and sometimes what they do blows me away...even the ones who are obviously a work in progress still got the art out there and I have heard appreciative comments on songs made on a beer budget. No it wasn't a very good recording, but it stands as art. Maybe one day they can take it to someone to master or get some insight into mastering....still I think it's an accomplishment.
 
 
 

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#44
batsbrew
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/27 15:06:55 (permalink)
i've always considered the line between mixing and mastering, to be a big fat line, once crossed over, requires a completely different mindset and using different tools.
 

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#45
Rain
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/27 15:44:19 (permalink)
Starise - since that's music for my wife, it wouldn't feel right to put it online. Plus, this one is a cover, and I have yet to get the legal details taken care of. 
 
I've kept on re-working that mix in my downtimes. It's close, closer than I've ever been.
 
I think it's got a lot to do with the fact that I've discarded EZ/SD - I just can't make my music work with those. I hear other peoples' music and it works terrific, their stuff sounds great, but I can't make mine work. Using one of Logic's own new kits, everything fell into place. Not so sure about the cymbals but the drums are alright. Someday I'll buy BFD...
 
As for the rest, you know what it is... You think you're close, but you need to take care of one detail that's annoying you - and then, with that out of the way, you notice something else which needs fixing that you weren't hearing before. 
 
At least for rock music.
 
For my own weird, electro-acoustic things, I'm doing alright now. Things sound as I hear them in my head.
 

TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
#46
Starise
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/27 20:25:25 (permalink)
I see a similarity in that I sometimes spend a really long time finding a drum program I like. It seems like no one program will fit. For awhile it was BFD and then for a long time nothing in BFD sounded right, so I went to Studio Drummer which I had given up on and it worked better in a few instances...go figure. This is after hours of trying different kits, kit combinations and loops both factory and hand made. I thought the new AD2 was going to be my end all solution...wrong....I seem to use some of all of them here and there at different times.  I think it's a form if insanity . On my latest mix.....which I can post at some point, I ended up scrapping all of the drums and playing acoustic percussion in live. I could get away with that because it is an acoustic guitar lead.
I wish I was a good drummer. Seriously considered hiring one for upcoming songs. There's a few locals around here that are inexpensive....or maybe one of the good drummers here on the CW site.
 
As you well know I can be long winded on the computer keyboard and I might talk about anything....this is also a form of insanity I think :)  I promise I won't bend your ear too much if you ever want to send me a track for "another set of ears". I'm no wizard...just a guy with ears, but I'd be willing to help give an OP on it and I won't bombard your PM box lol. As these things are sometimes mistaken for a person who thinks he knows it all....that's not me. Just trying to help, that's all. I know you already know what you're doing pretty well:)

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#47
Rain
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/28 15:58:48 (permalink)
Thanks, Starise! :) If I ever feel stuck w/ the mix and unsure where I'm heading, I'll certainly take your offer. 
 
One very obvious tip I've started putting to good use is to move back from the project at intervals and listen to a few bars of something else. I've realize that I tended to lose perspective very easily. As you work, everything seems to sound nice and good, but then you make a reality check and realize that you've simply gotten used to it.
 
Keeping that in mind at all time seems to help me.
 
As for drums... I tried SD again last night because I wanted to compare it w/ Logic's. Sonically, I really don't like it. But even worst is the way it handles velocity - or at least I suspect that's the culprit.
 
The track I'm working on has actually been written w/ EZ, using MIDI grooves from it, customizing them. But I never could get things to work - it's a shuffling, rockabilly sort of thing, which the snare rolling all through the verse, and no matter what I tried in EZ and SD the groove completely fell apart.
 
Quantizing, un-quantizing, nothing worked.
 
AD was no better. And NI Abbey Road drums, which I like, just don't play nicely with Toontrack grooves.
 
That's when I got Logic X and figured that, just for the sake of it, I'd try the new drum plug-in. Insert, press play. Close. Find a quantize setting that's loose enough but still works to give all those bits a sense of unity. Bam! Drums work both sonically and groove-wise.
 
I'd been messing with that track for months, on and off, trying to nail the groove. Took a minute to do w/ Logic's drummer.

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#48
Starise
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/30 11:33:35 (permalink)
Glad you found something that works! 

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#49
batsbrew
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/30 11:59:41 (permalink)
Rain
 
As for drums... I tried SD again last night because I wanted to compare it w/ Logic's. Sonically, I really don't like it. But even worst is the way it handles velocity - or at least I suspect that's the culprit.
 
The track I'm working on has actually been written w/ EZ, using MIDI grooves from it, customizing them. But I never could get things to work - it's a shuffling, rockabilly sort of thing, which the snare rolling all through the verse, and no matter what I tried in EZ and SD the groove completely fell apart.
 
Quantizing, un-quantizing, nothing worked.
 
AD was no better. And NI Abbey Road drums, which I like, just don't play nicely with Toontrack grooves.
 
That's when I got Logic X and figured that, just for the sake of it, I'd try the new drum plug-in. Insert, press play. Close. Find a quantize setting that's loose enough but still works to give all those bits a sense of unity. Bam! Drums work both sonically and groove-wise.
 
I'd been messing with that track for months, on and off, trying to nail the groove. Took a minute to do w/ Logic's drummer.



RAIN,
you might want to investigate Sony Acid.
 
i used to have it,
and created some killer drum grooves very quickly with it.
 

Bats Brew music Streaming
Bats Brew albums:
"Trouble"
"Stay"
"The Time is Magic"
--
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#50
Rain
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/30 16:20:22 (permalink)
batsbrew
 
RAIN,
you might want to investigate Sony Acid.
 
i used to have it,
and created some killer drum grooves very quickly with it.
 




Actually, I'm quite familiar with it, from my PC days. ;)
 
But admittedly, I've never been big on (audio) loops. So far, the most satisfying solution has been to use MIDI grooves and customize them. 
 
I think Apple are onto something with their Drummer plug-in - instead of simply browsing through endless lists of grooves, once you've picked your "drummer" and a basic groove, you "tell" your drummer how you want him to play via the GUI. More/less hat, softer/louder, more/less fills, hold back on the cymbals, etc...
 

 
 
There's something in it that's very close to the way I used to work with the drummer in our band.
 
Obviously, there's a lot of room for improvement - the minute you start to think about customizing pattern, the tools at your disposal lack the precision. But I can see how it could evolve into something very powerful.
 
That being said, at this point, I've used it more for the actual drums sound - because you can use Drumkit Designer without the Drummer plug-in/track - which fit better in my music than the rest of my libraries. These drum libraries account for 20GB of content, so it's not like it's a poor man's alternative to similar 3rd party libraries in terms of sound quality/diversity.
 
 

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#51
Jablowmi19
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/10/31 16:47:20 (permalink)
My understanding of Mastering is that its primary goal is to make multiple songs sound and feel like they're on the same album/CD? You can have two different mixes which are fine in their own right, but may not gel together as they should if they were part of a compilation. 
 
H-
#52
Jeff Evans
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Re: That fine line between mixing and mastering... 2014/11/01 02:06:56 (permalink)
Making multiple tracks gel nicely is certainly one of the goals of mastering.  (In level and tone or EQ qualities)  And one way to do it is to choose a track out of all the album tracks you have and master that first.  You pick this one track that best represents the total sound of the album.  It might be one of the biggest sounding tracks as well.  What you can do is to master this track first and called this the album reference track.  Even while you are mastering this track you can still switch to some nice commercial references that are right in the ball park.  That never hurts.
 
Now you master all the other album tracks in any order.  What you do though is have this reference album mastered track sitting inside every track mastering session.  And on a track muted most of the time.  You get cracking and master the next album track the way you want to and when it is close to complete you compare it to the album reference track and see how your newly mastered track stands up.
 
Often all that is needed is just a little change to the EQ mainly to match things by a lot.  It makes a world of difference, having your first mastered ref track around.
 
The trick is to choose carefully the first ref mastered track.
 
The other trick is to send these special ref tracks out to a different set of outputs on your interface and organise to switch incoming stereo signals using 2 trK monitor input selection or do it on a mixer you can solo real fast. It is better when you can switch around and compare tracks as fast as you can. You have less time to forget how something sounded.

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#53
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