Helpful ReplySeparate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar?

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cparmerlee
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2014/10/29 20:48:07 (permalink)

Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar?

I know this has been discussed off and on here.  However, as an Izotope RX4 user I have been receiving the materials about the upcoming release of Ozone 6, which is a stand-alone platform for mastering stereo tracks.  I do a lot of live recordings for various instrumental groups -- mostly for rehearsal or demo purposes.  RX4 is invaluable for cleaning up noise in the live environment.  But I have used various Sonar plug-ins for the "mastering" process (Concrete limiter, multiband compressor, EQ, etc.)
 
I am wondering how much better a dedicated suite like Ozone can be.  Is it worth the trouble of turning the production into a two-step process (mixing in Sonar and mastering in a different tool)? 
 
As separate mastering environments go, how would Ozone rank?

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BENT
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/29 21:45:54 (permalink)
FWIW , I love Ozone5 & Ozone5 advanced.
Download the demo... https://www.izotope.com/en/support/product-downloads/ozone-6
 
I've bought all the ProChannel add-ons apart from Softube. Tracking wise, I like the Concrete Limiter for bass and Drums, CA-2A on Vocals, PC4K calms the mix on a bus but finding I using them less and less at the mastering stage.
Ozone 5 advanced has become a one stop shop for me.
Can't wait to get into Ozone6 

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johnnyV
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/29 23:17:37 (permalink)
I've been using Wave Lab for mastering and 2 track live recording since 2001. 
I cannot see any other way of working on a 2 track files. It is just that it was designed to do this task from the ground up.  It's been my feature request for Sonar to at least try and improve the workflow for wave editing. 
Note that most of Sonars plug is can be shared by other software. 
 

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cparmerlee
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/29 23:27:53 (permalink)
johnnyV
I cannot see any other way of working on a 2 track files. It is just that it was designed to do this task from the ground up. 



I guess I should clarify.  Most of my live recordings are from 4-16 tracks.  I rarely do a stereo recording, so I bring that material into Sonar for mixing and other processing.  I am just trying to understand whether the benefits of a unique mastering suite justify the extra step in my case.
 
There are Sonar plug-ins for most of the functions you find in Ozone.  But it could be that the way it is all put together in Ozone (and other competitive platforms) makes it easier to make that final stereo mix shimmer.
 
I suppose ultimately I will need to spend some time with the demo version of Ozone, but I appreciate any input.
 
Maybe another way to ask the question is, can anybody identify things that are easy to accomplish in Ozone (or similar products) that are more difficult to do in SONAR?

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johnnyV
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/29 23:55:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cparmerlee 2014/10/30 01:26:56
Don't get me started as it is not my intention to bash Sonar for being week in only one out of hundreds of cool things it can do for us.  But basically if you use software that is optimized to do a certain task, then you find all the tools and features are faster and more user friendly.  
I'll just give you an example of how I use Wave Lab after I've exported from Sonar and maybe that will show you what I mean. 
 
Open the Wave file. 
Look at the start of the song, Place cursor at where I want it to start Shift /Home /Delete. 
There is noise in the 2 seconds before the song starts. place cursor at the precise place the music starts. Shift /Home / Backspace = silence. 
Open the normalizing tool and ask it to tell you the peak level. Make the decision to Normalize to -04Db. 
Look at end of song and find the spot where music has faded to zero and shift/ end/delete,  possibly add a new fade out. 
now we can master. Lots of tools. 
Open Global analyzer and find  your peak RMS level. I won't go into detail but this step is critical if you want to bring your song up to modern day levels and actually see where your at. From here you might need to manually look for peaks, apply eq to Plosives, this is where your really Mastering and is to detailed to explain. But most Daw's have none of these tools. 
 
All editing like applying a snippet of EQ to a plosive is fast and one or 2 mouse clicks.. All tools like EQ remain open in little GUI while you work. They don't close after one use. I could go on and on.
And each Wave editor has it's good and bad point's just like DAWS. I have tried all the major brand  of Wave editors  from free ware to full demos and I return to Wave Lab mostly because it's tools are so easy to use, and way  less mouse clicks away. I think you are the only one who can choose which you like the most.  So I highly recommend you get your hands on as many demos as you can and go at it. 
They are not as expensive as DAW anyhow, Wave Lab Elements was only $90.
 
Sound Forge I think was the most expensive. But it's super powerful, I just didn't like the way it flowed.   
 
And mastering is an extra step. Always has been. No one should try and do the mix down ( export)  as a master at the same time. I firmly believe in the mastering process as a completely different task. The right person, the right software make a huge difference.  

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raweber
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/30 10:22:54 (permalink)
Totally apart from the functionality of the software, many pro mixers and mastering engineers attest to the value of doing these functions separately - even for the diy/home recordist that would never hire these guys. The idea is that it takes separate mindsets to mix a song and to master an album.
 
My thought it that it probably breaks down some when just working on singles. When mastering an album I master in Sonar, but do it as a separate process for the entire album. When just doing a single the mastering is tacked on to the end of the 2-bus chain.

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Anderton
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/30 10:34:13 (permalink)
I started to write something, but realized it would be better as a blog post. There are many possible scenarios and many possible answers. None is inherently "right" or "wrong," but right or wrong for a particular context or set of requirements.

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cparmerlee
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/30 10:37:22 (permalink)
raweber
When just doing a single the mastering is tacked on to the end of the 2-bus chain.



If I understand the Ozone 6 announcement, if you buy the "advanced" package, that has the full stand-alone suite, but the essential capabilities are also provided as VSTs, that could be tacked onto the Sonar main bus chain.
 
I guess that is my question.  Are the VSTs built into the mastering suite substantially different or more useful for the mastering process, or is it "just another bag of VSTs", so to speak?

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CJaysMusic
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/30 10:43:10 (permalink)
All you need that Sonar doesn't have is a program to burn Red book CD's. Besides your mastering plugins and/or outboard gear, what else do you need? Nothing!!
 
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cparmerlee
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/30 10:46:48 (permalink)
johnnyV
And mastering is an extra step. Always has been. No one should try and do the mix down ( export)  as a master at the same time. I firmly believe in the mastering process as a completely different task. The right person, the right software make a huge difference.  



Thanks for the insights Johnny.  So I am curious about the psychology of mastering versus mixing.  Of course, in the old days, mastering was a physically separate process, tightly connected with the preparation for vinyl.  So naturally it was done by a different person in a different place using different tools.  I get that tradition.
 
But in today's environment, it seems to me the tools are more-or-less interchangeable.  You can use the Ozone tools as VSTs in Sonar, and you can take your favorite VSTs and plug them into Ozone.
 
So how do you approach the mixing process?  For example, There are times that I put a stereo expander on the main bus, and I certainly use  a multi-band compressor and the concrete limiter to make sure I don't have any clipping.  These tools usually make the mix sound "better".  So do you omit those during the mixing process and just tell yourself, "this is going to sound right after i master?"

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dubdisciple
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/30 10:52:10 (permalink)
Even though I set up a Mastering Bus, I treat it more as a pre-master that could essily be used if necessary but with compression and such at a gentle enough setting that revisiting it in another application would not be overkill. I think there is benefit to mastering at a separate time, even if doing in same application. I find myself liking the narrower focus of programs like Ozone and T-racks. T-racks is a very focused program. It does not even bother with reverb. It helps me to resist the urge to " add a touch of reverb as glue" and muddying up a previously acceptable mix. The fact that I can compile an album and apply same process helps with consistency which is one of the original purposes of mastering.
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/30 11:21:04 (permalink)
CJaysMusic
All you need that Sonar doesn't have is a program to burn Red book CD's. Besides your mastering plugins and/or outboard gear, what else do you need? Nothing!!
 
CJ




Again, it depends on the context. SONAR doesn't really have restoration tools, and analysis options are limited. But that may or may not matter.

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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/30 12:56:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dream Logic Audio 2014/11/04 13:12:28
cparmerlee
johnnyV
I cannot see any other way of working on a 2 track files. It is just that it was designed to do this task from the ground up. 



I guess I should clarify.  Most of my live recordings are from 4-16 tracks.  I rarely do a stereo recording, so I bring that material into Sonar for mixing and other processing.  I am just trying to understand whether the benefits of a unique mastering suite justify the extra step in my case.
 
There are Sonar plug-ins for most of the functions you find in Ozone.  But it could be that the way it is all put together in Ozone (and other competitive platforms) makes it easier to make that final stereo mix shimmer.
 
I suppose ultimately I will need to spend some time with the demo version of Ozone, but I appreciate any input.
 
Maybe another way to ask the question is, can anybody identify things that are easy to accomplish in Ozone (or similar products) that are more difficult to do in SONAR?


I have Ozone 5 Advanced (will upgrade to 6 when it is available). I use the separate plug ins for EQ, Dynamics, etc. in each track. When I have a final mix I export it as a stereo file and then import it back into Sonar to do final "Mastereing". If I am doing an album (for friends), I have a separate track for each song going to a separate buss that contains Ozone plus Concrete Limiter to catch any peaks that might have slipped by in the mixing stage.
Each buss then goes to the Master buss that uses Insight to look at the RMS and peak levels and the Volume level.
Since I've used this method, my songs are very nicely balanced and the volumes are consistent.
 
I like the Dynamic Plug in Ozone since it gives great visual indications to what's happening to the waveforms.
 
Walt
 

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mettelus
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/30 13:52:38 (permalink)
Before you get too excited about Ozone 6, be sure to check the threads in Software, like http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3109582
 
I own Ozone 5 Advanced, but that thread is making me back off any excitement regarding 6. For mastering purposes (i.e. one instance) Ozone 5 basic is a nice tool. Last year iZotope had a sale on their "Studio Bundle" at Christmas which was nice (Nectar 2 PS, Alloy 2, Ozone 5). Ozone 5 Advanced allows for modules to be inserted separately on tracks (lowering CPU usage if on tracks, but then is essentially Alloy 2 anyway) and includes some extras. The new Dynamic EQ seems to only come with Ozone 6 Advanced, and at the expense of losing other modules and a more CPU-hungry VST (which doesn't make sense), so I am waiting to get more feedback on this one first. 

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CJaysMusic
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/30 14:35:22 (permalink)
Again, it depends on the context. SONAR doesn't really have restoration tools, and analysis options are limited. But that may or may not matter.


That would be the "Mastering Plugins" I said in my post

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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/31 04:46:02 (permalink)
 I tend to agree to, as mentioned above by someone, that the chosen workflow greatly depends on whether you're mastering an album or a single song. As for the quality of the actual result, it shouldn't matter (?).
 
I've always tried to avoid creating a jungle of files of the same song. I bounce 2-3 different mixes to stereo tracks inside the project, then archive the other tracks and do the "mastering" inside the project. When I export for auditioning in different systems, I name the files according to the mix-version used.

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Sidroe
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/31 08:32:39 (permalink)
 We had a thread going just a few days ago about this very topic. Short and sweet, I used Ozone since version 3 until Cake started offering better plugs. Now I very seldom use Ozone. I have version 5 and used religiously. I found that with all the plugs that Sonar Producer offers and just a few more third party plugs I am able to create a mix that is just as good as if I did use Ozone. Ozone is a great tool and if you prefer to go that route it will serve you well. Be forewarned, Ozone is a CPU Hog! Capital H!!!!!!!! It wasn't so bad at version 3 but as each version gets released the CPU hit becomes bigger. Noticeably bigger!

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SuperG
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/31 09:03:12 (permalink)
I don't think there's a need to do mastering as a separate step - most of us are doing everything 'in the box'. The only reason for doing mastering as a separate step is is if workflow limitations present an issue, i.e., different person performing the function, at different location, etc...

laudem Deo
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fireberd
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/31 09:18:34 (permalink)
When I started using Sonar, I used the tools that came with Sonar (Producer).  About 2 years ago I tried both Ozone 5 and TRackS and settled on Ozone 5 (basic version).  What a difference!  I'm sold on the separate programs.  Several have commented that my mixes sound like they were done in Nashville (I record most country).  One of my clients is a retired Nashville songwriter and major label producer.  I've done a lot for him and he took notice of the positive difference since I started using Ozone 5.   

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sven450
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/31 09:39:01 (permalink)
I use Ozone 5, and create a separate project in Sonar.  Despite the fact that I could probably use what is given in Sonar Producer, having a separate project and a separate program makes me "rethink" the song/album, and lets me evaluate it on another level with (hopefully) fresh ears.
 
Doing "mastering" at the same time as mixing takes away from the time that should exist between the two steps.  If I wait for a bit before doing my version of mastering, I always hear the project with fresh ears, and using a different set of tools (many specific to mastering) helps me to clarify what is working and what is not.

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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/10/31 10:17:24 (permalink)
I really appreciate the range of views here.  May I ask the question a slightly different way.  I realize that at least 50% or 60% of the functionality in Ozone 6 Advanced is already there with the various plugs that come with Sonar Producer.  Some of the differences include dynamic EQ, multi-band stereo imager, and a much more powerful harmonic exciter.
 
Let's say somebody gave you Ozone 6 Advanced for free.  And let's say you really like those Izotope plug-ins.  Would you use the Ozone plug-ins inside Sonar for your mastering process, or would you work directly in the Ozone GUI instead?

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WallyG
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/11/03 13:50:02 (permalink)
mettelus
Before you get too excited about Ozone 6, be sure to check the threads in Software, like http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3109582
 
I own Ozone 5 Advanced, but that thread is making me back off any excitement regarding 6. For mastering purposes (i.e. one instance) Ozone 5 basic is a nice tool. Last year iZotope had a sale on their "Studio Bundle" at Christmas which was nice (Nectar 2 PS, Alloy 2, Ozone 5). Ozone 5 Advanced allows for modules to be inserted separately on tracks (lowering CPU usage if on tracks, but then is essentially Alloy 2 anyway) and includes some extras. The new Dynamic EQ seems to only come with Ozone 6 Advanced, and at the expense of losing other modules and a more CPU-hungry VST (which doesn't make sense), so I am waiting to get more feedback on this one first. 


I had a demo of Ozone 6 Advanced at the AES show in LA, and mostly liked what I saw. After reading the threads you recommended though, checking the features more closely, and looking at the ridicules upgrade price, I'll be sticking with Ozone 5.
Thanks,
 
Walt

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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/11/03 17:41:10 (permalink)
I guess for me, once you've used a certain piece of software and know it well, using something else that doesn't work as well is not an option.  
And it's not just plug ins, I actually don't use more than one or 2 when mastering, That being a hi pass EQ or the Loudness Maximizer if I need a 1 or 2 Db gain to get my RMS at my target . I'm mostly trimming, fade outs, looking for peaks and analyzing the RMS level. 
 
My Sonar mixes are 98 % fine, some would say they are ready for release as a finished product.
I add multi band limiting to my master buss and use it sparingly to catch overs. But this is only one of a couple of steps if I am to reach my goal of  around 13Db average RMS level. 
 
 
The final steps using Wave lab is the icing on the Cake ( pun intended har!) . I'm sure if I started playing with some fancy mastering plug ins I could make my tracks sound even better. But I'm not into overdoing effects in general. 
Sonar does have most of the tools and the missing ones can be added on, but it's the GUI interface that kills it for me. You won't understand until you've worked in the other environment, then you would see too. Or maybe you'd hate it, but I love working this way and I can a make a better job of it.  
 
post edited by johnnyV - 2014/11/04 10:06:00

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#23
berlymahn
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/11/04 09:14:02 (permalink)
Like to do my mastering on Ozone 5 (basic slob version - ha).
 
Sonar runs everything else up to that point.  Being a basement musician tinkerer I find the Mastering tool focus of Ozone to be very helpful.  My attempts to master in Sonar always fell short of the mark.  Ozone gets past my music hobby ig'nance and then minor twaeks from there give me the impression that I know something.
 

Jim Wim  
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#24
LLyons
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/11/04 10:16:19 (permalink)
For what its worth, when I started down the road to learn the concepts of mastering (and I'm about on page 10 of 300) I quickly learned that there was far more I could learn in the mixing department.  It might be a good blog addition that compares 'I had to make the changes here in the master, but if the mix had (changes in EQ, level, effects, balance), the master process would take less of a change'.
 
Given my learning, I seem to work on whole projects at a time which include 8-15 songs.  I keep all of those songs in its own folder.  Then I make a master folder.  When I mix down, I usually go to a 24 bit, 96k render, no dither and down 6db or so. Each mixed song in the project has its own master for the project.  I have a mastering template (love the templates!!!), which has the CA2A on each track but not engaged, and the Quad curve EQ opened up so I can see the wave form.  On the master buss in this order LP 64 compressor. the LP 64 EQ - Waves L3-16. AND A BIG THANKS HERE - on this forum, I heard about a free bundle from MeldaProduction.  I follow the L3-16 with their loudness analyzer, Manalyzer and stereoscope.  I use the CA2A to take a db or two off of the top from time to time, not always.  I use the (magical) LP tools for the brunt of the work, they really are quite good.  Then the L3-16 to bring up the loudness while listening first, then watching the three Melda meters.
 
Three points - I definitely use X3, separate project from the mix with its on organized folder for mastering.  There are free plugs out there that really do help (and this forum helps you find just about anything you need) on and above those that shape and control the sound. Sonars CA2A, and LP tools provide the most work ahead of the Waves L3.  
 
I am just learning the intricacies of that maximizer so I cannot compare it to anything, but I think it was a good investment personally.  I have learned in this forum that its just a tool - there are so many other good products out there that its a great idea to read a members comment, download the free trial, and see for yourself.
 
Best Regards,
 
Lance    

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#25
AT
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/11/04 10:24:03 (permalink)
We seem to be talking about 2 different things here.  I think the OP means mastering VST software, although process can just as easily mean mastering software like Sound Forge or the process of mastering.
 
SONAR can do it all, just not as easily as a dedicated mastering program like SF.
 
As far as the software suite for mastering, that depends.  There is no reason why you couldn't use the linear stuff (in fact, that is why they developed it, if I'm not mistaken).  For mastering especially, I think it is what you are used to.  I used Voxengo stuff for mastering before Cake came out w/ their suite.  I like it, I know it and can dial in my sound quickly from my presets.  Even tho I have (many) other choices now I still use Voxengo. 
 
Although Ozone etc. suites have a lot of bells and whistles you might find helpful, the built-in effects in SONAR and just about every other DAW/editor are more than powerful enough to deliver if you learn them.  There isn't that much sonic difference between them if you just want clean limiting and EQ, which ideally is what mastering calls for.  If you want color, go analog.  That is the difference between acrylic and water color.
 
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there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
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#26
dubdisciple
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/11/04 12:32:16 (permalink)
I think many of us agree that Sonar, withe aid of a few analysis programs can handle mastering just fine and for the old school those plugins are not needed. In many ways this is morphing into the mastering as a seperate process vs not which is slightly different than what OP asked.  I don't think the answer to either is whether one is inherently better but which works better with your workflow. I could certainly do most things in Sonar but years of taking my projects into soundforge for mastering has given me a process that works for me and I often return to, paricularly when pressed for time. If you are proficient in a certain method, variations of that method are likely to work better for you initially. I occasionally , master in sonar but find myself now getting more favorable results more effeciently with t-racks but I attribute it to me being used to it being a seperate process with a dedicated tool. Would it be safe to say the vs debate is one of long term vs short term goals? I would go as far as to say that a beginner or someone used to a seperate product workflow will do much better out the gate but could potentially do even better within Sonar since there is a larger palette. All of t-racks plugs are available to user individually and there are many plugs regarded as superior to any of the units within any of these dedicated solutions.
#27
mettelus
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/11/04 12:58:51 (permalink)
+1, so much of this comes down to your preferred work flow and what makes you most productive and comfortable. For me, the change was more for convenience, as I like the ability to customize several effects, how they are chained, and that saving this setup to a single preset (in one external plugin) worked for me. That said, please also bear in mind that you can do this with PC/FX chains right inside SONAR as well. Again much is preference, not that one method is superior.

Quick aside regardless of routes you try is to save presets often and with descriptive names. As you embellesh these, your work flow will improve.

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#28
vanceen
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/11/04 13:49:02 (permalink)
I have Ozone 6 Advanced.
 
Hopefully it's clear by now that you don't have to use Ozone as a stand alone for mastering. It works great as a plug in in SONAR if you prefer that. That's how I use it. I find that it's hard for me to completely separate the process of mixing and mastering, i.e. some mastering changes require tweaks in the mix.
 
I think that much of what I want to do could get done with SONAR tools, in theory at least. But things like EQ matching (comparing your recording with a commercial recording and correcting the EQ to match) are in Ozone but not SONAR. Setting up K metering is in Ozone but not SONAR. There are other examples. And Ozone is easy to use.
 
As you can guess, I'm an Izotope fan. Ozone, Nectar, and Alloy are all part of my process in SONAR.

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#29
cparmerlee
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Re: Separate mastering suite versus "mastering" within Sonar? 2014/11/04 14:28:44 (permalink)
I bit the bullet for Ozone 6 Advanced.  I really don't like the pricing -- such a large gap between basic and advanced.  I understand that gap in RX4 because they are clearly marketing the advanced package to radio stations and other outfits that do lots of production work unrelated to music.  Those folks can swallow the Advanced price tag easily.  But I don't see the same value proposition in Ozone.  Nonetheless, I would like to get some experience with the dynamic EQ, so I went for it.
 
I am recording a live show tonight.  It is 8 tracks live.  I'm planning to simplify my mixing process in Sonar (no multiband compression, EQ only on individual channels, limiter for safety only - no crunching, no stereo expansion).  Then I'll run that mix through Ozone stand-alone.  We'll see how this compares to previous recordings of the same band in the same room where I did everything in one pass under Sonar.

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#30
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