Helpful ReplyDo Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why?

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Anderton
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 09:30:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby lawp 2014/11/24 09:29:46
jih64
1. Why is it that you use a higher sample rate, it's more taxing on your machine etc, how come you can use lower buffers, get lower latency ? I ould have naturally assumed it went the other way.

 
There's the potential for lower latency, because the machine is running faster. But that doesn't mean you can achieve the lower latency in a practical sense because it is more taxing on your machine. A lot of times it's a wash - if you use X sample buffers at 48 kHz for reliable operation, you'll need to use 2X sample buffers at 96 kHz. 
 
2. I would have thought my machine would have been beefy enough to do 96Khz ? (maybe it would have without the crackles if I upped the buffers a bit)



Higher sample rates do stress out your computer and interface more. For example a USB interface that can stream 8 channels of audio at 48kHz may only be able to stream 4 at 96 kHz and 2 at 192 kHz.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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lawp
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 09:57:46 (permalink)
as craig points out, it's all in the maths (whether you can hear it or not ;-)) i.e., generally, the bigger the digital-unit-to-realworld-unit ratio, the better or more accurate it all is

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Guitarpima
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 10:18:38 (permalink)
I recently saw a Ted Talks seminar online about how perception affect personal choice. Say you bought a painting and was told it was a Monet. Later, you find out it's a fake and decide to just throw it away. It wouldn't even matter if you've had the painting for years.
 
I record at 44.1 because that's the medium. When the medium changes, I'll change with it. If you are a child, you may hear a difference between the different sample rates but if you think you can as an adult, your kidding yourself.
 
To really know how you hear you have to read up on the anatomy of hearing and get a hearing test and ask for the frequency curve of the results of that test. I asked the technician that did my last hearing test and she thought I was crazy about believing anyone could hear above 10khz. Or was it that no instrument can produce a sound over 10khz. Regardless, we can perceive up to 20khz, maybe 22khz as a child, but for the most part, most can hear up to 14khz.
 
Again, it's all about perception and our minds can trick us into perceiving something that's not reality.

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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 10:38:16 (permalink)
Guitarpima
If you are a child, you may hear a difference between the different sample rates but if you think you can as an adult, your kidding yourself.



Again, what intrigues me is that any difference (assuming there is a real difference) may not be related at all to frequency response, but to some byproduct of using higher sampling rates. The "better sound at 96 kHz for things that don't oversample" is a perfect example of this, as is the contention that some converters offer better performance at 96 kHz so they provide better sound - although it has nothing to do with frequency response.
 
If there is a benefit to higher sample rates that relates to something other than frequency response, then what I would hope is that those benefits could apply to improving sound quality at any sample rate.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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lawp
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 11:00:56 (permalink)
44.1 is the final delivery medium, but everything before that should be as hi-res as possible

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John T
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 11:07:43 (permalink)
I'd sum up my view like this: higher sample rates are not a particularly strong influencer of final perceived quality. Certainly, all analogue recordings ever made have lower bandwidth. Lower still once you whack them onto vinyl.
 
I'm not saying that a theoretical low quality of the final medium means it doesn't matter. I'm saying that what might seem, by the numbers, to be lower quality actually garners superb results.
 
44.1 was a well-chosen standard. The point of it was that it was way higher than you'd ever actually need.
 
Back to my opening point. When setting out to record something, I'm concerned about the performances, the instruments, the amps, the sound of the room, the mics, the mic placement, in that order of importance. I'm not sure where sample rate comes in terms of priority, but it's probably not even right behind mic placement. Pres are probably more important, and in truth, pres aren't all that important, once you're at a given level of transparency.

Basically, I decided to stop worrying about it and get on with making records.

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John T
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 11:09:42 (permalink)
There is a fairly cogent argument for using higher than 44.1 for recording, but it's got nothing to do with capturing higher frequencies. It's that it's easier to build the cutoff filter when there's a bit more bandwidth to play with. Not I just say easier, which you can read as "cheaper". There are many filters that work perfectly well in 44.1.
 

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bitSync
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 11:26:50 (permalink)
I'm at 24 bit / 44.1 KHz.  Honestly, the fidelity from that configuration is very satisfying to my ears and to the ears of other non-techie/non-audiophile listeners who have no preoccupation with things like word size and sample rate.  I'm not convinced that there is a verifiable difference in perception; this has been formally tested on more than a couple of occasions with unconvincing results.  I won't contest that folks who say they can hear a difference actually can, but I think they are probably in the minority of listeners.  I stick with this format because it results in what I consider exceptional audio fidelity while leaving the greatest possible processing headroom from DAW software and PC resources, i.e., great audio fidelity + great DAW stability.  I think if your DAW can keep up with higher sample rates for your projects, then go for it.  But namaste right here...

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drewfx1
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 11:48:18 (permalink)
jih64
3. drewfx1, are you Drew from FXpansion ?




No. 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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drewfx1
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 12:00:52 (permalink)
AT
Like most attempts at high end, if there is a difference between 44.1 and 96 or 768 it can only be heard on a good system and in good rooms by trained ears.  Just like converters and mics and preamps and such.  It is a small diff that most people don't get because they simply can't hear it.  Musicians and engineers etc. w/ ears attuned to the nth degree can tell some differences, but I imagine would be hard pressed if blind tested on ear buds.
 
Of course, many of us get our rocks off on the last inch of quality we can squeeze out of sound whether by hardware or technique, and I warrant many of us get better performances and give greater detail to our work if we believe we can hear such differences.  So it is worthwhile, even if only psychologically.  But that doesn't mean you have to go all DSD or only use the most exotic hardware etc.  The best bet is to do testing yourself on your system and see if you can hear the difference, then decide if filling up hard drives like they are floppies is worth it to you.
 
Me, I record at 44.1 - I haven't heard enough difference to switch to 96 even tho it is becoming standard.  I do make sure the effects upsample and turn the older Cake synths etc. to high render rates.  That I can hear a difference in the smoothness.
 
@




Ear training can indeed allow one to hear small details if they are audible.
 
But the "only with super gear in special room" is nonsense. Different artifacts caused by different things (including listening systems and the listening environment) just do not conveniently line up with each other that way to get masked. 
 
Can't hear an artifact in a given situation (assuming it's real and audible by humans)? Try turning up the volume a little. Or playing a "worst case" signal. Or moving closer to the speaker to reduce the role of the room or environmental noise. Suddenly it's audible with any gear.
 
The stuff that can only ever be heard with special equipment under any conditions always turns out to be imaginary. 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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drewfx1
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 12:05:26 (permalink)
lawp
as craig points out, it's all in the maths (whether you can hear it or not ;-)) i.e., generally, the bigger the digital-unit-to-realworld-unit ratio, the better or more accurate it all is




No.
 
Once you are more accurate than human hearing, you cannot get better accuracy unless you replace the human with something better. 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Milton
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 12:25:43 (permalink)
What is puzzling to me is that at lower sample rates (44/48) I get "lower" buffer settings but "higher" latency times. Conversely, at higher sample rates (96/192) I get "higher" buffer settings and "lower" latency. Haven't got my brain around this yet. Can anyone clarify this confusion for me? p.s., This is why 96KHz was the "sweet spot" for my system as I got useable enough low latency and some "wiggle" room to increase my buffer if needed.

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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 12:28:21 (permalink)
Think of it this way: As long as you aren't moving faster than the rest of us a second is a second. 


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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 12:34:17 (permalink)
drewfx1
lawp
as craig points out, it's all in the maths (whether you can hear it or not ;-)) i.e., generally, the bigger the digital-unit-to-realworld-unit ratio, the better or more accurate it all is




No.
 
Once you are more accurate than human hearing, you cannot get better accuracy unless you replace the human with something better. 


That is a really great point. I wanted to say something like it but no where near as well. 

Best
John
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 12:45:33 (permalink)
John
drewfx1
lawp
as craig points out, it's all in the maths (whether you can hear it or not ;-)) i.e., generally, the bigger the digital-unit-to-realworld-unit ratio, the better or more accurate it all is




No.
 
Once you are more accurate than human hearing, you cannot get better accuracy unless you replace the human with something better. 


That is a really great point. I wanted to say something like it but no where near as well. 


so only dogs and bapu can hear the difference?

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Milton
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 12:49:38 (permalink)
Here's how I perceive different sample rates:  44.1 = Mp3, ear buds, iTunes, iPod, average car stereos, boomboxes     96KHz = CD, good studio monitors, and above average home stereos     192KHz = audiophile home stereos (and mostly classical and HD recorded acoustic music). So the final medium and intended audience has a factor in the sample rate choice for "capture". It's similar to photography and pixels:  5 mp camera makes an excellent photo but not past a 5x7 print    8mp camera makes excellent 8x10 inch print    20mp camera makes excellent 16x20 print etc. But if one is only going to print 5x7 photos then having a 20mp camera is then a waste. My intended audience is CD and above average home stereos. But downsampling from 96 to 44.1 can let me print "any" size photo from 5x7 to 16x20 (figuratively). eg. Mp3, earbuds to higher end stereo systems. If my theory is incorrect, please enlighten me.

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#46
Milton
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:05:45 (permalink)
Love your quote John T. "Basically, I decided to stop worrying about it and get on with making records." Makes me want to get off of this computer and go back into my studio and actually produce something!

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John
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:07:04 (permalink)
Milton
Here's how I perceive different sample rates:  44.1 = Mp3, ear buds, iTunes, iPod, average car stereos, boomboxes     96KHz = CD, good studio monitors, and above average home stereos     192KHz = audiophile home stereos (and mostly classical and HD recorded acoustic music). So the final medium and intended audience has a factor in the sample rate choice for "capture". It's similar to photography and pixels:  5 mp camera makes an excellent photo but not past a 5x7 print    8mp camera makes excellent 8x10 inch print    20mp camera makes excellent 16x20 print etc. But if one is only going to print 5x7 photos then having a 20mp camera is then a waste. My intended audience is CD and above average home stereos. But downsampling from 96 to 44.1 can let me print "any" size photo from 5x7 to 16x20 (figuratively). eg. Mp3, earbuds to higher end stereo systems. If my theory is incorrect, please enlighten me.


How did you arrive at those conclusions?  You know CDs are 16 bit 44.1 kH Sample rate? 
 
Also there is no relationship with digital imaging and digital audio.  
 
With images there really is no size issue. Its really how large you want the "pixels" to be. 
 
Your idea is more analogous to loudness for sound not "quality". 

Best
John
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lawp
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:08:13 (permalink)
drewfx1
lawp
as craig points out, it's all in the maths (whether you can hear it or not ;-)) i.e., generally, the bigger the digital-unit-to-realworld-unit ratio, the better or more accurate it all is




No.
 
Once you are more accurate than human hearing, you cannot get better accuracy unless you replace the human with something better. 
Yes, the more accurate the maths the more accurate the final output, you're talking about the final mix that the end listeners here, I'm talking about the mixing

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drewfx1
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:18:41 (permalink)
Milton
Here's how I perceive different sample rates:  44.1 = Mp3, ear buds, iTunes, iPod, average car stereos, boomboxes     96KHz = CD, good studio monitors, and above average home stereos     192KHz = audiophile home stereos (and mostly classical and HD recorded acoustic music). So the final medium and intended audience has a factor in the sample rate choice for "capture". It's similar to photography and pixels:  5 mp camera makes an excellent photo but not past a 5x7 print    8mp camera makes excellent 8x10 inch print    20mp camera makes excellent 16x20 print etc. But if one is only going to print 5x7 photos then having a 20mp camera is then a waste. My intended audience is CD and above average home stereos. But downsampling from 96 to 44.1 can let me print "any" size photo from 5x7 to 16x20 (figuratively). eg. Mp3, earbuds to higher end stereo systems. If my theory is incorrect, please enlighten me.




Sampling is nothing like photography.
 
At a given sample rate, if you band limit the signal to (i.e. filter out everything above) 1/2 of the sampling frequency (aka the Nyquist frequency) then the entire signal is stored in the samples - including the part of the waveform between the samples. In the real world, the filters used for band limiting (and reconstructing the signal) will not be perfect a little bit below the Nyquist frequency.
 
What this means is that for sampling itself*, higher sampling rates do give "more resolution" or "better accuracy" or anything like that - they just allow for higher frequencies to be sampled. And 44.1kHz and/or 48kHz already allow for the entire frequency range of human hearing to be accounted for. Though many believe they can hear higher ultrasonic frequencies, none of them can seem to demonstrate this ultrasonic hearing ability under controlled double blind listening tests.
 
 
*Certain types of processing can benefit from a higher sampling rate, such as processing that creates higher frequencies.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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drewfx1
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:29:01 (permalink)
lawp
drewfx1
lawp
as craig points out, it's all in the maths (whether you can hear it or not ;-)) i.e., generally, the bigger the digital-unit-to-realworld-unit ratio, the better or more accurate it all is




No.
 
Once you are more accurate than human hearing, you cannot get better accuracy unless you replace the human with something better. 
Yes, the more accurate the maths the more accurate the final output, you're talking about the final mix that the end listeners here, I'm talking about the mixing



Accuracy is generally always limited by the "least accurate" step. IOW, a noisy signal does not become "more accurate" by doing calculations on it at higher precision once any calculation errors are already buried in the noise present.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#51
Anderton
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:36:09 (permalink)
lawp
as craig points out, it's all in the maths (whether you can hear it or not ;-)) i.e., generally, the bigger the digital-unit-to-realworld-unit ratio, the better or more accurate it all is



If that's indeed what I said, that wasn't the conclusion I intended to have drawn...granted, you can get theoretically better accuracy, but that doesn't mean it has practical implications. Sometimes it does - like sample rate converters doing more accurate calculations now that we have longer word lengths. But increasing playback bit resolution from, say, 24 to 32 bits doesn't matter because no physical converters can take advantage of the extra 8 bits. It's down in the noise floor and quantization noise.
 
But my point isn't really about accuracy as related to frequency response, but whether there's some other element that just happens to be associated with a higher sample rate. Think of it as a follow-up to the "foldover distortion minimization" thang. For example, I found it intriguing that while perusing this subject on the web, one person theorized that the reason why "golden eared" people could hear a difference with 192 kHz compared to CDs in a particular test was because the 192 kHz material was coming from a hard drive and had less jitter than optical playback.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:37:05 (permalink)
I've read in many cases where pretty much anything above 96Khz was pure marketing, which has worked, but I've heard this from a few different manufacturers: An A/D converter works best at one rate vs. another. The electronic circuitry (ala the A/D converter devices, and possibly the OP-AMPS) work better at 96Khz, but because of marketing, 192Khz is supported. If you buy an A/D marketed toward the higher-end of the market, 192Khz might be superior. However, for the lower-end market, where 96Khz and lower are supported, but the higher rates are simply added on for marketing purposes, 96Khz is better.
 
I don't even consider going higher than 96Khz, because most music in the industry simply doesn't benefit. If you're going for Audiophile recordings, where the ultimate medium is digital, played through a Wavac system or something mostly geared for an audiophile listener market, then 192Khz might be beneficial. I 'hear' it helps the outer rim of vinyl.
 
For the mass markets, the resulting medium will benefit better by a higher bit-rate vs. higher sampling rate unless the D/A conversion is not all that.
 
My $0.03

Brian
 
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Anderton
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:44:52 (permalink)
drewfx1
Sampling is nothing like photography.



Indeed, I think Milton is confusing bit resolution with sampling rate. Sampling is more like frame rates in video, and that's an ideal example of a point of diminishing returns - past a certain point, the human eye's persistence of vision is the limiting factor. You can increase the frame rate all you want, but the eye can't respond fast enough for it to make any difference.
 
I believe a lot of the "16 bits isn't enough" talk came about because when the CD was introduced, a dirty little secret was that a lot of CD players were playing back through 12-bit converters, which meant at best only 10 "real" bits of resolution (taking quantization noise, circuit board layout, glue components, etc. into account). 16-bit converters were more like 14 bits. When 20 bit converters appeared that could do a true 16 bits, it definitely made a difference -- not because they were 20 bits per se, but because they delivered true 16-bit resolution.
 
People also get tripped up over audio engine resolution vs. recording and playback resolution. Audio engines need more resolution because of the massive amounts of calculations that are always being done, but ultimately, those calculations are in service of a much lower bit resolution on playback, and based on much lower bit resolution when capturing signals.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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John
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:52:33 (permalink)
Anderton
drewfx1
Sampling is nothing like photography.



Indeed, I think Milton is confusing bit resolution with sampling rate. Sampling is more like frame rates in video, and that's an ideal example of a point of diminishing returns - past a certain point, the human eye's persistence of vision is the limiting factor. You can increase the frame rate all you want, but the eye can't respond fast enough for it to make any difference.
 
I believe a lot of the "16 bits isn't enough" talk came about because when the CD was introduced, a dirty little secret was that a lot of CD players were playing back through 12-bit converters, which meant at best only 10 "real" bits of resolution (taking quantization noise, circuit board layout, glue components, etc. into account). 16-bit converters were more like 14 bits. When 20 bit converters appeared that could do a true 16 bits, it definitely made a difference -- not because they were 20 bits per se, but because they delivered true 16-bit resolution.
 
People also get tripped up over audio engine resolution vs. recording and playback resolution. Audio engines need more resolution because of the massive amounts of calculations that are always being done, but ultimately, those calculations are in service of a much lower bit resolution on playback, and based on much lower bit resolution when capturing signals.


I would say that the above is a very fair and reasonable approach.

Best
John
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Anderton
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:55:14 (permalink)
This is also why more testing needs to be done. There was a study done in Japan that showed different brain activity in people responding to frequencies above the theoretical range of human beings ("hypersonic" frequencies). There's an excellent paper here that was not written by someone from Sony LOL. Nor does it say "hypersonic frequencies are all good" or "all bad." Their research indicates that in some cases, frequencies between 20 and 32 kHz created a negative effect. Just quoting the conclusion doesn't do the paper justice, but it might encourage some to read the whole thing and check out some of the references:
 
Conclusion
By observing Alpha-2 EEG, it became clear that the emergence of the hypersonic effect changes either positively or negatively depending on the frequency of the HFC applied along with the audible sound. We showed that Alpha-2 EEG increases when HFCs above approximately 32 kHz are applied, which indicates that a positive hypersonic effect has emerged, as shown in our earlier studies. Our present study reports, for the first time, that Alpha-2 EEG decreases when HFCs below approximately 32 kHz are applied, which indicates the emergence of a negative hypersonic effect.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 13:58:29 (permalink)
 
"



Ear training can indeed allow one to hear small details if they are audible.
 
But the "only with super gear in special room" is nonsense. Different artifacts caused by different things (including listening systems and the listening environment) just do not conveniently line up with each other that way to get masked. 
 
Can't hear an artifact in a given situation (assuming it's real and audible by humans)? Try turning up the volume a little. Or playing a "worst case" signal. Or moving closer to the speaker to reduce the role of the room or environmental noise. Suddenly it's audible with any gear.
 
The stuff that can only ever be heard with special equipment under any conditions always turns out to be imaginary. 
"




Drew, I'm not sure what you're arguing here.  If you are sticking to the sample rate part of the thread, I agree with you.  As stated, I use 44.1 since I can't hear any difference worth the bother.  And I agree if you can only hear a difference in an anechoic chamber wearing a tin-foil hat it probably doesn't have any real-world use, esp. since it likely doesn't exist.  But you are too categoric in your dismissal of gear, room and training as far as the art of music, and as I argued, the psychology, too.  Some days in the studio I hear different things as related to mixing before I touch a knob.  Maybe I need that tinfoil hat? ;-)
 
@
 
 

https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
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there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 14:05:27 (permalink)
drewfx1
Accuracy is generally always limited by the "least accurate" step. IOW, a noisy signal does not become "more accurate" by doing calculations on it at higher precision once any calculation errors are already buried in the noise present.



+1. Stated in another context, the point of a high-accuracy audio engine isn't to improve a signal, but to make sure it's not made any worse

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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drewfx1
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 14:24:10 (permalink)
Anderton 
But my point isn't really about accuracy as related to frequency response, but whether there's some other element that just happens to be associated with a higher sample rate. Think of it as a follow-up to the "foldover distortion minimization" thang.

Some (on topic) thoughts:
 
1. Sometimes (i.e. with Windows) things can get resampled under the hood to the native rate of the OS/HW, and the SRC routines in these cases are not necessarily very good. 
 
2. Assuming someone is hearing a real, non-imaginary difference, are they just assuming the higher rate is "better"? In some cases it can actually be worse, or just different. But when they know which one is which, people automatically tend to think that the thing they perceive should be better as not just "different" but "better" or "more accurate".
 
3. Converter design. Most modern converters are highly oversampled (and at low bit depths). For an ADC, this combines an analog anti-aliasing filter together with a digital decimation filter which together filter out everything above 1/2 the sample rate at the output of the ADC. Is the same analog circuitry used at different sample rates? And what design choices did they make for the decimation filters? Ironically, sometimes it's the makers of "high end" gear that make the more questionable choices.
 
 
Generally you can eliminate these questions by doing the (double blind) testing as follows:
 
a. Start with a signal at the highest sampling rate.
b. Convert a copy of this to the lower rate and then back to the original rate using a good SRC routine.
c. Do (double blind) listening tests to compare the two files.
 
Doing the SRC to a lower rate and back removes any higher frequencies present in the original. But since both files are at the same (higher) rate, it eliminates any differences in converters, etc. that might be confused with the sampling rate itself.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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John
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Re: Do Your Record at Higher than 96 kHz and if so, Why? 2014/11/24 14:37:14 (permalink)
Great stuff Drew and Graig. 

Best
John
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