Helpful ReplyPhasing when sending track to a bus???

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200bpm
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2014/11/26 11:47:52 (permalink)

Phasing when sending track to a bus???

This behaviour is odd and unexpected.
 
I have a (guitar) track which I send 100% to an FX bus.  The bus has nothing on it, just playing straight to master.  The original track playback is not muted.
 
Is there a delay when sending the track through a bus that does nothing?  I would expect it to raise the volume of the track because it is doubling the output of one thing.  Yet the volume is lowered with phasing.
 
Can someone explain why this is happening?   Only thing I can think is that the bus is delaying the signal so that parts of it cancel with the original.  Why would the bus introduce lag, and is there a way to avoid this?
 
 
 
 

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200bpm
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/26 11:57:28 (permalink)
This seems to be a bug! (And a big one)
 
When the FX send is enabled prior to hitting play, the volume is doubled -- because the original track is playing and the bus adds to it.
 
However, when the FX send is disabled and reenabled during playback, the phasing is introduced.
 
To get rid of the phasing, I have to stop playback, enable the bus and the play.
 
Can anyone present a rational explanation for this behavior or should a bug be submitted?

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gustabo
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/26 13:35:03 (permalink)
It's probably a slight latency delay because of an effect either on the track or the bus that is causing one to be delayed just the slightest bit which causes an audible phasing.


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Anderton
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/26 14:04:57 (permalink)
Hit the PDC button to re-align the tracks. Better yet, read the documentation on PDC. Some non-SONAR effects change their delay dynamically, so PDC has to deal with a moving target.
 
SONAR was one of the first DAWs to align tracks with effects of different latencies correctly, and remains better than most in that respect. One of the reasons I switched to SONAR way back when was because it was impossible to do time-coherent multi-band processing in [other DAWs that shall go nameless]. But you need to understand how the process works to take advantage of it.

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/26 14:35:00 (permalink)
Anderton
Hit the PDC button to re-align the tracks. Better yet, read the documentation on PDC. Some non-SONAR effects change their delay dynamically, so PDC has to deal with a moving target.
 
SONAR was one of the first DAWs to align tracks with effects of different latencies correctly, and remains better than most in that respect. One of the reasons I switched to SONAR way back when was because it was impossible to do time-coherent multi-band processing in [other DAWs that shall go nameless]. But you need to understand how the process works to take advantage of it.




There are no effects on the track.  Its just a send to an empty bus causing the phasing. And the problem occurs when the bus is enabled during playback.  There is no phasing when the bus is enabled prior to playback.
 
Bug.
 
If the audio engine can't maintain phase alignment throughout that is a problem that at least needs to be looked at.

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Kylotan
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/26 14:37:41 (permalink)
I suspect it's not practical to align the 2 tracks at runtime automatically, but it is an interesting question as to why. If some effect has delay compensation on it which would mean the current tracks would have to drop out in order to line up the outputs, it implies that this could be worked around (within the engine) by just delaying when the send starts operating. Maybe Sonar just fails to (or chooses not to) perform the relevant latency checks when enabling the send during playback.

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drewfx1
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/26 14:58:05 (permalink)
Are there any other tracks that are using FX feeding the same bus?

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/26 15:03:13 (permalink)
Kylotan
I suspect it's not practical to align the 2 tracks at runtime automatically, but it is an interesting question as to why. If some effect has delay compensation on it which would mean the current tracks would have to drop out in order to line up the outputs, it implies that this could be worked around (within the engine) by just delaying when the send starts operating. Maybe Sonar just fails to (or chooses not to) perform the relevant latency checks when enabling the send during playback.


That makes sense, but as there are no effects, I would not think there should be any latency; the original track and the empty stereo bus should be hitting the master bus at EXACTLY the same time.
 
Maybe someone else can recreate this.

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Anderton
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/26 15:12:01 (permalink)
200bpm
 
There are no effects on the track.  Its just a send to an empty bus causing the phasing.



That doesn't matter. If there are ANY effects in the project, and one of them has latency, PDC will try and compensate. This compensation by definition has to affect all tracks to compensate for the anomalous effect, and may need to be refreshed periodically.
 
I will try to re-create what you are experiencing with a fresh project, and will report back

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/26 16:23:29 (permalink)
I'm still not clear if by "no effects" you mean no effects in the project at all, or just no effect on that particular bus or track. In any case, I wanted to try and reproduce it.
 
I created a new project and inserted a WAV file (not a groove clip) in a track that went to the master bus. I then added a send to that track, and the bus output also fed the master bus. If I kept the bus level constant and varied the track level, as I turned up the track level, the overall output became louder. It exhibited this behavior whether or not I enabled the bus before playback, or enabled/disabled the bus during playback.
 
If you can provide more details on steps to reproduce that would be helpful, because the above didn't reproduce.

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/26 17:02:53 (permalink)
I think I had this phenomenon when I enabled a send to a bus during playback - eg. a snare drum goes to a bus both directly and via a compression bus. Starting with the send to compression off, then switching it on during playback, gave a phased sound on the final bus. Stopping and restarting transport fixed it. But this was a while ago. (Might have even been in 8.5 when I experienced it.)

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/27 08:02:53 (permalink)
I just confirmed my repro case above.
 
Set up 1 softsynth (in my case, Superior Drummer 2), 1 bus with Sonitus Compressor on it, and 1 master bus.
Softsynth sends to the compressor bus and outputs to the master bus. Compressor bus outputs to master bus.
Set the compressor up almost like a limiter so there isn't much effect on peak volume levels (as that will confuse matters),
Disable the send.
Start playback, ideally of a piece playing the same note over and over.
Enable the send, listen to how the sound changes to become phasey.

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gustabo
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/11/27 08:06:16 (permalink)
Do you still have the phasey sound if you disable the comp in the bus?
 


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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/12/02 06:13:16 (permalink)
No, it's the compressor. I get the phasing if I enable the send to a bus with the compressor on it during playback, and if the send was already enabled but I switch the compressor on during playback.

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/12/02 11:37:03 (permalink)
FWIW I'm also doing some null testing with tracks and buses to see if I can find anything reproducible regarding phase issues if effects are not in the path.

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/12/02 11:43:22 (permalink)
I've had phasiness when sending tracks to a bus before. Sometimes it would happen after the first iteration of a loop, or when toggling loops on and off during playback. There are certain actions, like toggling loops or turning effects on and off during playback, which seem to cause Sonar to go out of whack time wise. I notice it a lot with time based effects which go out of sync when turning loops on or off. 
 
The send phasiness is something I've noticed when sending dry bass signal to a bus with an amp sim on it. After the first iteration of a loop, the bass would suddenly sound out of phase and stopping and starting was the only way to fix it. I haven't seen this for a while but I've certainly seen other instances of send phasiness. I have one going on right now, a vocal track which gets sent to a compression bus. Every now and then it will sound out of phase and I have to stop and start to fix it. 

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2014/12/02 11:53:49 (permalink)
Sharke, I'm seeing a pattern here...which compressor?
 
As to the other examples, can you recall whether this changed at all with X3e? Also, I'm not surprised that stopping and starting is a fix, it gives SONAR a chance to "re-align" things.
 
Could you do me a favor - next time this happens, instead of stopping and starting, toggle PDC and let me know what happens.

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2015/03/22 01:17:16 (permalink)
Craig, sorry I never responded to your question in this (fairly) old thread, it must have slipped through the net. I came back to it after having a really bad time with this problem tonight. The compressor I seem to have the most problem with when it comes to bus phasing is Native Instrument's VC76. It's a great compressor for doing NY compression but it just does not seem to play nicely on a bus. Sometimes the phasing is fixed by stopping and starting, other times it just won't go away until I close and relaunch the project. I've toggled PDC to no avail. 

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lfm
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2015/03/22 03:59:51 (permalink)
I think there might be something to look into.
 
I ran Waves TrueVerb on an effects bus - and forgot to turn direct signal off on a preset - and got this odd distortion on master with Waves L2. Turning direct off - it went away.
 
Most noticable when reaching treshold of L2, almost like bitcrushed dist.
But never had anything like that before.
 
I am to investigate further on another daw and come back, if a Waves issue. But since I read this thread I put it here. TrueVerb is not to have any latency.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2015/03/22 04:15:47 (permalink)
Interesting thread ...
 
I was aware of this phasing issues as regards adding sends while playback is running (and stop/start fixing it), but I still consider it a bit of a hazzle when it comes to switching sends to reverb/delay buses on and off (which BTW quite frequently causes the audio engine to stop) ... this should be investigated by Cakewalk to ensure this doesn't throw PDC out of sync and keeps the audio engine running at all times.
 
while the stop/start "workaround" had "fixed" the problem up to now, I have now run into a more mysterious situation where I get phasing even after start/stop when using AD2 as VSTi with a bus set up for NY compression, but not when using AD2 bounced to audio tracks in the same configuration ... really strange (more here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3193915)
 

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2015/03/22 12:34:40 (permalink)
So you think it could be a problem related to VSTi's and not audio tracks?

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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2015/03/22 13:56:12 (permalink)
sharke
So you think it could be a problem related to VSTi's and not audio tracks?


Well, I can't tell ... I have noticed it on AD2 while the OP had his problems with a guitar track ... something is not behaving quite right. we need to dig deeper.
 
BTW, the OP did not mention whether he is using Platinum or X3 (because there were optimizations done for Platinum and my mentioned problem about audio engine quitting when switching sends on/off seems to have been improved somehow in Platinum) ... however, the AD2 phasing issue I had was in Platinum ...
 
 

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2015/03/22 14:04:02 (permalink)
Yep I see it in Platinum. You'd think it would be a PDC issue, but that wouldn't account for it happening when sending to a bus with no effects loaded, and as far as I know the VC76 plugin doesn't require PDC either. It seems that there are certain triggers which create a delay between a track and a bus. As stated above, I've seen it happen after the first iteration of a loop, when playback goes back to the start of the loop. I used to get that one all the time when using Mark Studio as a send on a bus. It would drive me crazy and sometimes I would have to close the project and relaunch it just to get the tracks in phase again. 

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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2015/03/22 22:26:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby AndreyB 2015/08/12 03:56:56
I've been playing around with this, and have reached the following conclusions:
 
- Other than the case noted earlier in this thread where the send to a bus with a PDC-inducing plug on it is toggled off and on without restarting the transport, I can't reproduce a problem with phasing between direct output and parallel send buses except in the case of a send bus used only by Addictive Drums (AD1 does it as well as AD2). That's not to say it can't happen in other scenarios, but I haven't seen it personally.
 
- In the case of AD, I've found that if any other audio track is also sending to the parallel bus along with AD, then there's no problem. This can be a track with a recorded or bounced drum part, another soft synth output or even an audio track that just has input echo enabled with no signal on it.
 
- The phase error seems always to be exactly 64 samples, so in lieu of adding some other audio track sending to the parallel bus, the phase error can be compensated by adding 64-sample delay to the parallel bus using Channel Tools or some other sample-delay plugin.

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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2015/03/23 02:44:50 (permalink)
Thanks for digging deeper and reproducing the issues !!
 
brundlefly
I've been playing around with this, and have reached the following conclusions:
 
- Other than the case noted earlier in this thread where the send to a bus with a PDC-inducing plug on it is toggled off and on without restarting the transport, I can't reproduce a problem with phasing between direct output and parallel send buses except in the case of a send bus used only by Addictive Drums (AD1 does it as well as AD2). That's not to say it can't happen in other scenarios, but I haven't seen it personally.
 

 
I think here we have 2 separate issues because switching plugs on/off should not really cause a delay/phase shift ... I remember Noel just recently posting something about placeholders which are inserted when a plug is turned off to take care of that and keep the track in sync ... apparently not fully functional ...
 
The AD1/AD2 problem is way stranger because other VSTi like Abbey Road Drums in K5 don't cause this in identical multi-out/separate drum bus/parallel compression setup ... I'm glad it could be reproduced ... but since it goes away once you freeze the AD2, it seems very much like a different problem ...
 
brundlefly
- In the case of AD, I've found that if any other audio track is also sending to the parallel bus along with AD, then there's no problem. This can be a track with a recorded or bounced drum part, another soft synth output or even an audio track that just has input echo enabled with no signal on it.

 
 
interesting (as a potential workaround) ...
 
brundlefly
- The phase error seems always to be exactly 64 samples, so in lieu of adding some other audio track sending to the parallel bus, the phase error can be compensated by adding 64-sample delay to the parallel bus using Channel Tools or some other sample-delay plugin.




does 64 samples coincide with your ASIO buffer settings by any chance???
 

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#25
lfm
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2015/03/23 03:40:30 (permalink)
FreeFlyBertl
 
does 64 samples coincide with your ASIO buffer settings by any chance???
 


I don't have AD, but Addictive Keys - and it report 64 samples.
I would not be surprised if AD is the same.
 
I think the internal effects of these products is using the latency.
 
Would be good if there is such a field in plugins manager, or better a general project list of used plugin with this info - like in Cubase and Reaper. If to bypass plugins for doing a new record this is good info.
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Re: Phasing when sending track to a bus??? 2015/03/23 13:47:57 (permalink)
lfm
 
I don't have AD, but Addictive Keys - and it report 64 samples.
I would not be surprised if AD is the same.
 
I think the internal effects of these products is using the latency.



Thanks for the info; I suspected this might be the case. It would be nice of this info were easy to get from SONAR. I never really thought about the potential for a VST Instrument to add latency. Do you know of an other VSTis that do this?
 
 
 

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