ORTF and mic placement

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gswitz
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2014/11/22 21:05:36 (permalink)

ORTF and mic placement

I'm trying to get ready to record a choir next weekend, and I've been reading SOS articles about different methods...
 
This article,
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun08/articles/qa0608_5.htm
 
Mentions this technique...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORTF_stereo_technique
 
So I got a stereo mic bar for $15 or so at Guitar Center and gave it a try. I was just practicing Ashokan Fairwell using 2 KM184s in this spread...
 
Here is the result...
http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20141122_Ashokan.mp3
 
I was surprised at how wide the phase issues get.

 
I tried using the Melda Productions Auto Align plugin I've got, but it made almost no perceptible different.
 
In this case, the mics were only a foot from my guitar. I recorded melody and rhythm separately.
 
 I was just practicing this mic technique which is new to me b/c I've never had a matched pair of cardioids before now.
 
Any tips for recording the choir are welcome. I'm planning to bring two LDCs and aim them at the choir from boom stands as I high as I can get them and then put the ORTF pair 5 feet away or so. That's my hope anyway.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    wst3
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    Re: ORTF and mic placement 2014/11/23 10:10:07 (permalink)
    Recording a choir is a lot of fun - can also be a lot of work to get it right.
     
    A couple of observations...

    First - the ORTF configuration is meant to capture both volume and time (read phase) differences. So especially at such a close distance I'd expect phase differences - not issues<G>. I prefer coincident configurations, but when I use ORTF I use it at some distance from the source.
    I prefer (at least these days) either Mid/Side or Blumlein configurations for stereo recording. I don't get the same depth of image, but i get great mono compatibility, and very repeatable results.

    I also tend to shy away from large capsule cardiod microphones when recording spaces. I've never been completely happy with the results. I do lean towards cardiod patterns, but I prefer small capsules at any distance.

    Ultimately, and I don't say this to sound simplistic, it comes down to how the choir sounds in that specific space. Have them sing and walk around the room. Get a really tall boom stand and place a stereo pair (coincident or not) way up high and give that a listen.

    Without seeing/hearing the space and the choir I can't get more specific than that, but I can tell you what has worked for me in the past. This was for a 40 plus piece children's choir in a large, stone church.
    1) a Blumlein pair using a Royer SF-12 stereo ribbon microphone was placed about 20 feet back, and about 15 feet up (maybe higher, it was as high as my stand would go.)
    2) a coincident pair of Earthworks SR-77 microphones was placed about five feet behind the conductor and about 5 feet above her head.
    3) I also placed a pair of Sennheiser MKH-405s about 10 feet back and at the extreme sides of the church. I ended up not using those tracks, they didn't provide anything I didn't already have.

    Your mileage, of course, will almost certainly vary!!!
     

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
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    gswitz
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    Re: ORTF and mic placement 2014/11/23 12:57:27 (permalink)
    Bill,
     
    You've got a lot more choices than I have. I'm not a pro, and my mike locker is a little light. The placement of my KM184s is going to be the most important. I don't have a stand that will go as high as 15 feet. I have a stand that might go up 8 feet, but that's about as high as it reaches.
     
    Can I borrow your mics?
     
    ;-)
     
    I was thinking I could use the LDCs to fill in some of the soloists if they are a little light in the ORTF pair. I'll try out the Blumlein positioning today and see if I feel better about that. I don't have the greatest stereo bar.
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MY500?adpos=1o2&creative=55673940721&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAiAqMajBRCdjejki6yjuDwSJACQeVukRGQDGG_-mUoRjifz395i0kFxsn81C3DeBC8S7vpumRoCa1vw_wcB
     
    These are the mics I have to work with...
    AKG D880 - dented grill from a time the mic stand tipped over - used for vocals sometimes
     - Purchased in 1998
    http://www.akg.com/D880+++D880+S-1290.html?pid=1574
     
    Shure SM57
     - Purchased in 1998
    http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/sm/sm57-instrument-microphone
     
    Shure SM86 - vocals
     - Gifted in 2005?
    http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/sm/sm86-vocal-microphone
     
    Shure PG81 - Drum Overhead
     - Purchased in 2003?
    http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/pg/pg81-instrument-microphone
     
    I have 3 of these  - Purchased in 2002? - Drum mics
    Shure PG56
    http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/pg/pg56-snare-tom-microphone
     
    Shure PG52  - Purchased in 2002? - Kick Drum Mic
    http://www.shure.com/americas/products/microphones/pg/pg52-instrument-microphone
     
    CAD TSM411 - Purchased in 2014 - Snare Mic
    http://cadaudio.com/TSM411.php
     
    Studio Projects SP B3  - Purchased in 2007? - Vocals or whatever
    http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/b3.html
     
    MXL Guitar Cube Pro - Purchased in 2014
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/condenser-microphones/mxl-guitar-cube-pro
     
    MXL Mogami Edition V69 Tube   - Purchased in 2008 - Anything but usually Vocals
    http://www.mxlmics.com/microphones/studio/V69/
     
    Blue Bluebird  - Purchased in 2009? - Anything but usually Vocals
    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Bluebird
     
    MXL V63M  - Purchased in 2006 - Anything but usually Acoustic Guitars
    http://www.mxlmics.com/microphones/900-series/63M/
     
     
    A snare mic
    TSM411 Cardiod Dynamic mic
    http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/articles/cadmics.htm
     
    A pair of Neumann KM184s

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #3
    wst3
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    Re: ORTF and mic placement 2014/11/23 13:06:32 (permalink)
    gswitz
    You've got a lot more choices than I have.

     
    Choices are good - but keep in mind I've been building my locker for almost 30 years, it helps<G>!
     
    gswitz
    I'm not a pro, and my mike locker is a little light. The placement of my KM184s is going to be the most important. I don't have a stand that will go as high as 15 feet. I have a stand that might go up 8 feet, but that's about as high as it reaches

    Your microphone collection is pretty good, if I were in your shoes I'd invest in a large, heavy microphone stand, and then I'd curse my name every time I take it out of the studio<G>!
     
    gswitz
    Can I borrow your mics?
     
    I don't think you want to drive from Richmond to Philly twice... and while I do loan them out from time to time I'm not a big fan of shipping them anywhere.

    gswitz
    I was thinking I could use the LDCs to fill in some of the soloists if they are a little light in the ORTF pair.
     
    A good plan!
     
    Biggest challenge, I think, will be finding a spot for the stereo pair where it sounds awesome. I can't recall the last time I had to use spot microphones - not saying I don't put them up, but if you get that stereo pair in a sweet spot you won't need the spot microphones.
     
    Good luck, and have fun!

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
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    gswitz
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    Re: ORTF and mic placement 2014/11/23 13:44:56 (permalink)
    Thanks for the help, Bill.
     
    I've been searching the web looking for such a stand. I have until next Sunday to obtain it. I'm not having an easy time finding a 15 foot stand though.
     
    Any suggestions?

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #5
    gswitz
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    Re: ORTF and mic placement 2014/11/23 13:57:41 (permalink)

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #6
    wst3
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    Re: ORTF and mic placement 2014/11/23 17:37:47 (permalink)
    The K&M will certainly do the trick, but I'll bet it ain't cheap! The gold standard is usually the Atlas SB-36 family, they start at around $300, but they do last forever. My guess is the K&M is just as well made. Ultimate Support makes the MC-125, and that's not to bad either, and it's about half the price. I have a pair of Quik-Lok A-50 stands, they have a collapsible tripod base which makes them easier to transport than the Atlas style base. I've had them for 15 years, and they've yet to fail me. I think they were about $100, so that are also reasonably priced.

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
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    rumleymusic
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    Re: ORTF and mic placement 2014/11/24 12:31:01 (permalink)
    For tall stands on location,  it is very common to see Manfrotto or Calumet light stands instead of microphone booms.  The threads on light stands are 3/8-16 which is the European microphone standard, and will fit the adapter that comes with just about every mic clip in the US.  They are lighter and more economical.  Just remember sand bags.  
     
    I am just finishing up 2 album releases of choir music.  One of Bach's mass in B-minor and the other a Christmas album of a local professional choir.    You can see the setup of the latter here.  Basically three omnis in front as a Decca tree, and a NOS cardioid pair as a room microphone about 25 feet back.  I think room mics are important for choir as the washy, faded sound of distant mics help glue the mains together.  What you don't want is individual voices sticking out.  
     
     
    I do prefer omnis for choir in an AB pattern but cardoids should be okay.  With directional mics, ORTF and NOS are the best patterns for choir I think.  The former for room, and the latter for clarity.   Though I agree Blumlein is hard to beat.  Just remember that cardoids should be slightly further back than omnidirectional mics, maybe 6-8 feet behind the conductor.  The height should be around 9-13 feet.  Too high and the sound may be too bright.  

    Daniel Rumley
    Rumley Music and Audio Production
    www.rumleymusic.com
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    gswitz
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    Re: ORTF and mic placement 2014/11/28 11:42:32 (permalink)
    Big help Daniel. Thanks!

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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    gswitz
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    Re: ORTF and mic placement 2014/11/30 23:38:32 (permalink)

    StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
    I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
    #10
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re: ORTF and mic placement 2014/12/03 06:50:40 (permalink)
    Music! Good stuff.
     
    I like the way some members of the choir occasionally laid out a bed or root tone underneath the lyrics. That sounded very nice.
     
    Nice job! 


    #11
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