ProChannel and FX Bin homogenization proposal

Reading several threads, especially the last about PC in Track view, reading about Metro changes in Windows 10 and "fighting" with PC in CS API, I have the following idea.
 
Since PC is just another FX bin and PC modules are FX plug-ins with special (additional, proprietary) UI, why do not integrated them ? At the moment, PC module can not be in FX bin and FX module can be in PC in wrapped mode only. When both are merged into one:

• FX bin and PC represent the same set of FXes/PC modules.
• In FX bin, PC module looks like any other FX (a button with name) and has normal (not PC) GUI (except some CW PC modules, they have "normal" FX GUI version already).
• In PC, PC modules have special GUI (like now) and FX modules are shown like collapsed EQ module with "Open Zoom Window" button to open normal GUI.

I think that is relatively easy to implement technically and avoid "FX bin vs PC" questions.

Grem
So your saying that when I stick a non-PC FX in, it will have a "fly-out" GUI?

VST GUI is internal window. It is normally wrapped into usual SONAR plug-in window (with all related decorations). I do not think there is a problem to wrap it into "fly-out" window (till it is already shown separately... but that is a technical detail)

gswitz
This is an interesting thought.
 
The FX Bin has been becoming increasingly obsolete, yet I still use it sometimes (mostly for MAutoAlign). It is hard to be able to enable and disable FX without expanding the Pro Channel. This would also enable you to group the on and off buttons for the FX in the bins.
 
Interesting thought, thanks for sharing.
 
I'm interested to see what the next version of Sonar might look like.

I don't use the FX bin hardly at all anymore. It's the FX Chain that I use now. Because so much of what I do now revovles around the PC. The "Fly-Out GUI" is the perfect solution!
 
So instead of the FX Chani in the PC, you would just load a plugin directly in the PC. If that plug has no PC GUI, then it's regular GUI would be displayed in the "Fly-Out" and it would only show in the PC as a collapsed strip. Not a bad solution at all!
 
This would be available to Producer only editions of Sonar. All others below Producer would still use the FX bin.

I fail to see what's wrong with the current set up. The PC is there for those who want to use it, and the FX bin is there for those that want that. Or a combination of both of course. 
 
I love the fact I can have the PC open in the inspector and it's content follows my track focus. I appreciate that you can't see it all the time in all tracks in just the track view but all you can see of the FX bin in that context is it's contents so fail to see any advantage there. 
 
At the moment either method works so why force one way or another?

gswitz
...The FX Bin has been becoming increasingly obsolete...

If most plugin effects can only be used in the FX Bin, how can the FX Bin be obsolete?

Any plug-in can work in the ProChannel but that is not the issue. The existing FX bin is important for backward compatibility. Cakewalk made a design decision to add the ProChannel in the X series. It would be strange for them to drop the ProChannel at this time. I am not sure

azslow3
"FX bin vs PC" questions.

are real or manufactured.

gswitz
I guess for me, the old FX bin is kinda a waste of space as it is. Just saying.

It can be if you don't need it. There is a setting the the Track Control Manager to remove it.

scook
Any plug-in can work in the ProChannel but that is not the issue. The existing FX bin is important for backward compatibility. Cakewalk made a design decision to add the ProChannel in the X series. It would be strange for them to drop the ProChannel at this time.

The idea is not to drop PC concept!
The idea is to make PC act as a  "new version/concept" of FX bin instead of "new feature" apart from FX bin, as it is now.
 
Just imagine you see your old FX bin in PC view, with some plugs already "magically converted" to PC Modules (those which have already implemented PC Interface). And once you get more PC aware modules (or replace PC unaware modules with PC aware in the PC/FX bin) your PC strip gives you all that advantages advertised since PC introduction.
 
At the moment everyone is forced to make a decision: should I stay "old style" without PC or should I use PC and accept the fact all my old projects should be reworked to use it, most of my modules will either stay in "obsolete" FX bin or go into PC FX containers (with extra clicks to open GUI). If merging is somehow implemented, there will be no such question, no extra conversion work. And who knows, may be PC will become a part of VST5 API...

May be I just do not understand something, but from http://blog.cakewalk.com/know-your-signal-flow/ I do not see how ProChannel/FX as separate chains can help with routing (and what is no longer possible once they are merged).
 

pro-channel is a lock-in that offers nothing beyond a cut down "optimised" gui,  there was a load of noise about this when it was introduced so it's kind of ironic that 3 versions in and the requests are to re-combine them :-)
other hosts offer the choice to use the custom vst gui (usually vintage-looking ;-)) versus generic gui elements for the vst controls, without some proprietary nonsense a la pro-channel
you can do everything in the fx bin, without using the prochannel, unless you use some pc module that's not also available as a vst
 

imo i think cake are losing out by restricting their in-house-developed (i assume, not including overloud or softube) pc modules to the pc; there's a much bigger market for vst2/3 versions of hq plugs :-)

I came to Sonar in the X1 cycle and used the ProChannel exclusively from the off. I've never found a good reason to use the FX Bin, and to be quite frank it seems like a PITA in comparison. There's just not enough space to work with, especially if you're into using long chains. It's too cramped and you can't see the full chain at a glance. Whereas with the ProChannel its very easy to see my full chain and know exactly what's going on.

My only gripe is that the ProChannel FX Chains should be resizable on the vertical axis. They're a waste of vertical space if you only have one effect in there. Sometimes you need to use 2 or 3 FX Chains on a track (say you want to insert single VST's in between your PC modules) and it all adds up. If we could collapse or resize FX chains I'd be very happy.

I was confused about some of the posts in this forum until I started messing around and discovered that ordinary effects plugins can actually be inserted into the ProChannel by means of FX Chains. And also, a VST can be dragged and dropped from the Browser into the ProChannel, automatically creating an FX Chain to contain it. I am the only Sonar user who didn't know this? I had never bothered to explore FX Chains before. I ignored this feature because I had assumed that it was just a means of saving and recalling popular FX combinations.

I would guess one of the considerations when designing the FX chain was the FX Chain UI. If it used as a plug-in wrapper only, the UI does not matter. However, there are times when the FX Chain format factor is too small, lacking enough knobs or buttons. At times, the controls lack enough slots. For those that use the FX Chain strictly as a plug-in wrapper a single slot version of the FX Chain with a fixed UI containing small I/O controls on it's face might be sufficient.